I was going to suggest rendering at Preview or Draft but I now read Peter has already tried that. I think the problem may originate in Vegas only sending one field into the FX chain in some of it's preview modes. It might pay to try fiddling with the de-interlace method during the render but that's really a long shot.
Fpr what It'd worth I've noticed the same issue with some of the NB FXs. The difference between Preview And Best is more than just a quality change, it's almost like a different FX.

Bob.

Much appreciate your usual lateral thinking / winging Grazie!!

I can try some kind of PTT, but a) this is HD MXF and b)Even if I tried a DV avi, It will probably render first anyway - I'll keep trying though.

It's really frustrating when what we see on screen is exactly what's wanted, but ... so far ... there seems to be no way of preserving this for posterity!

After the first couple of renders turned out differently, and discovering that it was the Preview quality which created the desired look, I though, oh, that's easy, I'll just change Rendering quality to Preview, but this logic is evidently flawed.

I've tried Sharpen, hoping that this would bring the edges back, but it also brings lots of other unwanted detail back.

But, as you say, I need to set Preview to Best than start "futzing around" just in case I can recapture the look we want.

Cheers

Peter

Yes, thanks Bob - it does almost look like a different effect.

I'll keep twiddling with settings for a while, including your suggestion with deinterlace methods, although this is 25p EX1 footage ....

I may have to accept this limitation/shortcoming for now, but if you heard my client (who just happens to be a gorgeous lady), squeal with delight when she saw the effect in Preview, it's very hard to tell her she can't have it!

Yah'wanna send me a screen grab of the AutoPreview and BestPreview? I may have an answer?

Grazie

Your offer sets me a few challenges, Grazie, but here I go ...

Firstly, I can't share the ACTUAL shots I'm working with, for confidentiality reasons, but the same thing applies to any footage, so here's three stills from a different project:

Challenge 1 - get these stills to appear - I never get it right first time, but I'll edit until I do.

Incidentally, Grazie, your offer has led to a new discovery - if I change to Best / Auto the Preview still looks ok, in fact maybe even better, but Best / Full loses it:

First, here's a still using Preview Auto:



Now here’s the same frame usimg Best/Auto:



And finally, Best / Full, which is how the Renders look:

WOW! That is $%^& ! OK . . . . It would seem one has to introduce an element of "edge" AND some! If I can get together a Preset and I haven't forgotten how to export and send to PW I'll try . ..

Wow . . that IS a major difference!

Gonna roll up sleeves.

Grazie . . . .

Have to also ask, how are/what are you rendering to? It looks as if the render has reduced the "noise" - which in THIS case - is WHAT you to keep? Is there something in the Template? What Template are you using?

Grazie

If all else fails why not just do a screen capture. You'd need something like Camtasia. I was going to suggest pointing camera at screen (the EX has Clearscan) but with LCDs you really need to watch out for moire. I had a client who did this, never watched it at full raster. Then sent me the tapes with explicit instruction to use exactly this effect.
Looked like c**p to me but that's what they wanted. Anyways they see the outcome and declare ME an utter fool for using such c**p. You win some, you loose some.

Bob.

Just taken the still, put on timeline AND rendered out to . . er . .. MPEG-2_HDV 1080-60i.m2t and I can't see a real difference between that and the PreviewAuto? I AM watching on Best Full, streamed-through to my Pro Monitor and there's LOADSA definition? Lotsa hard lines. But I could also stiffen that up too? Maybe add a tad CCurves Contrast? - But it is NOT like the Best thingy? Maybe I am doing something wrong in my render template?

Grazie

Yes, Bob I admit to having the same idea, but I couldn't bring myself to type it out! LOL!!!!

Grazie

The stills I posted above were from screen captures of the preview screen, but as I said the last one looks like the renders I've tried, using any setting from Draft thru to Best. I want to be able to render and keep the "Auto" look.

Source footage is Sony MXF 1920 x 1080 25p. Render Template is exactly the same.

Grazie, I don't think any rendering using these stills will have the same effect, because the result of the different preview settings is already flattened into the single jpg image I posted, whereas my problem comes from applying the effect, then trying to maintain the look I see after rendering.

I don't know if you have New Blue FX (if you haven't, thanks even more for trying to help!), but if you do it would be good to apply the same steps to some "original" footage of yours.

I'm currently trying to submit a report to New Blue Support, in case there's something at their end - bit of a jungle that site, all I've got so far is "Knowledge base", without any button to go beyond...

edit - I just found a way thru to New Blue, so we'll see if they have any suggestions.

I shall also submit this to SCS support.

eh . . How about, just for larfs, if you did an interim render? Something that will "hold" the definition? Starting to think maybe that the FX and this template weren't meant for each other? What do yo think?

Grazie

Sorry Grazie - what do you mean by an interim render? - if you mean Selectively prerender, I've tried that and it makes no difference.

Bob - I've just twigged what you meant - capture Video rather than stills - that could well be an interim answer, maybe a permanent one - if Camtasia doesn't cut it, I'll try the EX1 and see what I get .... probably tomorrow ...

edit: I have another clip to which I'm applying a different New Blue FX - this time Hand Drawn / Chalk Drawing, and the result is exactly the same - it looks absolutely stunning in preview, but the final render is wishy-washy rubbish. I'll try the same thing with that one ...

Incidentally, the reason I'm not fully available this evening is my daughter, who lives 5 mins away, is due to deliver her third baby - she just rang to say there are a few signs - and I'm on call to look after her 18 months and 3 year old boys whilst Chelsea, as she put it, "does her business". Exciting times.

Sorry Grazie - what do you mean by an interim render? - Render to ANY interim format that does work. and then render to your template. Meaning Timeline to SD > and thence Peter's.

if you mean Selectively prerender, Well, if that gets you through the night then Timeline Selective Pre > SD > Peter's Template

If you can get ANYTHING to hold the look then do it.

Grazie

OK, while another tape gets writ I thought about this somemore.
Maybe the answer is to simulate what is going INTO the FX.
By that I mean render out a lower resolution version of the original (no FX), apply the FX to that and then upscale that back up.
I'm pretty certain that how the lower quality preview modes get the fps up is by reducing the load on the FX chain by feeding less pixies into the pipeline. This would explain (maybe) the fatter edges.

Bob.

Alternatively, how about saving as a sequence of images using a script. Most of the published scripts automatically set the quality to Full as that's normally what you would want, but it should be possible to comment out the line that does that and just leave it at the quality that gives the desired result.

Mark

I've had a rep[ly from New Blue which confirms what we've been discovering:

"Additionally, because the line drawing effect uses pixels comparisons to find the line, it does not scale as well as many of our newer effects (the line drawing algorithms in paint effects and cartoonr, for example). Once again, please preview in Best/Full to see what it will look like.
Try changing the preview mode to "Best (Full)" and see if it matches your rendered output. I just did a quick test and saw a definite change when going from "Preview (Auto)" to "Best (Full)". This was with HD footage on an SD timeline,"

So basically, it would have been better if my client had never seen the Preview Auto Version, but she has ....

Anyway, I have another rush job on for another client, but later on I shall try the Camtasia or even shoot the preview screen approach ....

Mark - that's an interesting idea - I'll check that out too.

Many thanks for the update Peter. Good to know that your endeavors have brought a sane response!

I like Mark's idea too. Render an image sequence and be done! Anyway, just how long is the sequence? Seconds or minutes?

Many moons ago, I had a REAL issue with a section of video of a woman slomo walking over a star field DOWN a corridor and turning into a deeply sculpted hollow skull-head . . Vegas just kept on choking on what I had asked it to do. Enter, Image sequence! The actual choking was about 3 seconds long, but enough to bounce the effect.

. . and yes, my client HAD seen what I was trying to do too! And wanted the "LOOK"!

Grazie

Yes Grazie, I think Render Image Sequence may be the answer - I found a 2005 script which already used whatever Preview quality was set in Vegas, but my first attempt using this didn't quite work out - only the third frame (out of 400) was in colour.

I seem to remember that recent changes in Vegas needed some rewriting of scripts, and I'll continue researching - I have Ultimate S and Excalibur, so they may do the necessary.

- then I'll have to remind myself how to import these sequences!

I just tried what I'd suggested above and it does seem to work.
I took a 50i HQ MXF into Vegas and checked out the considerable difference between how Cartoonr reacts between Preview/Auto and Best/Full. Took a Screenshot of Preview/Auto for reference and then rendered the MXF to 16:9 PAL SD at Preview.

I bought that back into a 1920x1080 50i project and applied Cartoonr to that and even at Best/Full it looks very similar to how the original MXF looked at Preview/Auto.

The results were not identical but the edge thickness was retained using the same Pencil preset. I can't say with 100% confidence this will give you what you're after but my quick tests indicate it's worthy of further investigation.

Bob.

Thanks Bob - I just tried that and it comes out somewhere in between the two - the black lines are nowhere near as prominent, though.

I'm hoping the scripting way may do the trick, and I've posted on the Scripting Forum - hoping for a script that as Mark suggests sets the rendering quality to be the same as set for Vegas Preview.

I haven't tried Camtasia yet either - if I can get 25fps preview with FX working, that should also get close.

Interesting that you had that result with Cartoonr - New Blue Support suggested that would work better than the FX I'm using.

"Interesting that you had that result with Cartoonr - New Blue Support suggested that would work better than the FX I'm using."

Wasn't until I read that did I reread your original post and realise that you were not using Cartoonr. Might be worth a try, it can certainly give you a pencil like outline, highly dependant on the content of course. The frustrating thing of course is it'll never be exactly what the client saw and jumped for joy.

Bob.