CDA 5 breaks real time preview in Sound Forge

R0cky wrote on 12/5/2002, 1:34 PM

Installing CDA 5 cause Sound Forge (both 4.5 and 6.0d) to crash in real time preview of DX plugins. I mostly use noise reduction but at least one built in plug in I tested acted the same.

I've verified this by rolling my system back to pre-CDA5 using Ghost. Real time previews run all night no problem, install CDA5 and they'll hang SF from 1 sec to a few minutes later.

Comments

SonicJG wrote on 12/6/2002, 10:28 AM

We're not reproducing this. Which OS are you on? Any other relevant info?

Thanks,
Joel

R0cky wrote on 12/6/2002, 3:09 PM

Windows 2000 SP3 with most, but not all of the latest MS security etc. updates.
IBM NetVista A60 - P4 1.5 GHz with 1Gbyte of RAMBUS DRAM.
DirectX 8.1, Windows media 7 with all of the updates.

I've tried it with both SF 4.5h and 6.0d - happens with both using Noise Reduction 2.0a. Very reproducible. In SF 6.0d I tried a built in DX plugin and got the same behavior. I only tested NR in SF4.5h. CDA 4.0g is installed and works fine.

CLUE: I think it doesn't happen when I'm only using the integrated audio (Sound Max-I think it's an Analog Devices chip). If I use the Echo MIA card (both versions 6.04 and 6.05 drivers) it definitely does happen. All I did was set both windows sound mapper and SF to use Sound Max, I didn't uninstall the Echo drivers. I may test this again, but it's a lot of work to get back to SF working afterward.

Norton AntiVirus, Black Ice network defender firewall/IDS. Many other apps installed but these are the ones that usually mess stuff up. Nero but NOT Roxio CD creator or Direct CD. CD creator/Direct CD is a virus as far as I'm concerned.

I "think" I tried it with Norton AV disabled, don't remember. I've definitely disabled the Black Ice engine to no effect but that doesn't remove the files it installs. I've done some experimentation but not everything since It's a big pain to get back to where SF works -- I have to reload my whole disk using Ghost. If I hadn't ghosted the disk I'd really be in deep yogurt having to reinstall windows and all of my apps.

I also sent a message to you guys using the support request form.

R0cky wrote on 12/9/2002, 2:56 PM

SonicJG - here's how to make it happen. You need an Echo MIA sound card. It's an interaction between DX plugins, CDA5 and the Echo driver.

Echo MIA sound card has 4 virtual outputs - one stereo card looks like 4 different devices. Each output and input may also be set to bypass the WDM driver (this is called "Pure Wave" mode - driver version 6.05).

The way I like to set up my system is: Echo driver 6.05 on WDM for all outputs and inputs, Sound Forge on outputs 1-2, CDA on outputs 3-4, Windows sound mapper (For win media etc) on outputs 7-8, outputs 5-6 unused.

This worked fine with CDA 4, SF 4.5h or 6.0d, noise reduction 2.0a. With CDA 5 installed and this setup (WDM MIA drivers):

SF real time DX previews crash (CDA 5 does not need to be open).
CDA 5 uses the same outputs Soundforge is set for (e.g. outputs 1-2) not the ones CDA 5 is set for (e.g. outputs 3-4). CDA 5 preferences dialog continues to say outputs 3-4.

If "Pure Wave" MIA drivers, CDA5 says there is no output device to play through (it's still trying to use the outputs Sound Forge is using). If Soundforge is not open then it will be able to play since SF isn't using those outputs.
SF real time previews still crash (CDA 5 does not need to be open).

NO crash IF: Echo MIA drivers on "Pure Wave" for soundforge outputs (1-2). Echo MIA drivers on WDM for the outputs used by windows sound mapper (7-8). CDA5 set to use windows sound mapper as it's output device.

The problem seems to be related to CDA 5's trying to use a different output device than the one it's set to (using outputs 1-2 when set to 3-4). Whether the issue is CDA5 or Echo's driver I can't tell.

SonyIMC wrote on 12/12/2002, 4:14 PM

Bastinado, There might be some confusion with the implementation of ECHO's WDM mode vs. the PureWave mode. The drivers allow for multiple apps to share the same virtual out if WDM is used. This is not so with PureWave as it appears from my tests of this card that in PureWave mode only one app is allowed access to a pair of virtual outs. This can cause problems when the modes are switched from one to the other; SO when you had all your apps set to different virtual out ports then swiched driver model it resets all the audio port routing preferences back to SoundMapper and SoundMapper itself will change back to 1 & 2.

If you attempt previews from Sound Forge when another app is usign the unsharable ports you will not get any sound.

Adding to this complication is the fact that CDA5, will not set the audio port preferences to the selected port until re-started. This will appear as an error attempting to use ports 1 & 2 while the prefs state that 3 & 4 are being used.

Also, changes to the ECHO routing need to be done when there is no apps accessing the sound card. So once you set up the routing the way you want to then go into each one of your Sonic Foundry applications and set it's routing the way you want to. Then close the apps and restart them just to make sure the changes stuck.

We have had no luck in revealing a crash with this scenario, though. So hopefully these intructions allow you to fix the issue and continue on making music.

Ivan Calderon
Sonic Foundry SQA

R0cky wrote on 12/14/2002, 12:23 PM

Thanks for the response. I've also been corresponding with Brian Putney in tech support. CDA5 needing restart to change its output device was news to me. I've redone some of my experimentation closing and restarting the apps after setting their output devices. I also made sure I first set up the MIA driver with nothing open and then rebooted to make sure.

I have not tried to have multiple apps use the same virtual output (I did test it where it behaved as you describe) on the MIA card except when I had CDA5 set to use ms sound mapper - then if you have win media player open too then by definition CDA5 and Win media are using the same virtual output, i.e. the one used by sound mapper. That seems to work fine. I have had no trouble with CDA5 or win media, either using sound mapper or direct to the MIA virtual outputs. The issue is always the hang of Sound Forge when using real time preview of DX plugins after CDA5 was installed. There was no problem prior to CDA5 installation.

When these 3 apps are all set to use different virtual outputs with the WDM mode of the MIA driver (SF on 1-2, CDA5 on 3-4, sound mapper on 7-8), then the crash does occur (only Soundforge needs to be open).

I have varied many things in the setup, and the only setup where SF RT DX preview does not crash is when the MIA card is set to use the PureWave mode on the virtual output that Soundforge is using. Purewave or WDM on the CDA5 virtual output does not seem to make a difference. My current setup is is Purewave on virtual outputs 1-2 (SF), 3-4 (CDA5), 5-6 (any other sound app) and WDM on virtual outputs 7-8 (sound mapper). This seems to work, though I'm just a beginner using CDA5 and haven't explored its features very far.

thanks again

If I roll my system back to pre-CDA5 using Ghost, then it does not matter if MIA is on Purewave or WDM for the SoundForge virtual outputs, SF works fine.