Cineform - 0-255 and 16-235. Let the user decide!

LarsHD wrote on 6/9/2009, 12:21 PM
NeoScene
Standalone
Feeding it with MOV files from a 5D2 camera (or rather "did")
NeoScene then "adjusts" the levels so that 0-255 get 16-235.

Some may like this.
Some may not like this. I don't like it. I want to decide myself about such a significant change of my footage. Cineform should not alter the basis for my workflow. I work 0-255 and then if I want 16-235 I do that at the end of the project / editing. I

I think that if I buy a more expensive Cineform product then I would be able to convert to Cineform without having my levels altered... (?). Is 16-235 the more and more popular "introduce a strange limitation to get people to buy again and something more expensive..."

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My request please:
NeoScene, which isn't cheap should *NOT* alter and change teh levels from my camera files. I have noting against a good 16-235 conversion. But then I want to chose this myself if/when I want it. Checkboxes!

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For next NeoScen update:

Make it possible to actually use the Cineform codec WITHOUT this "negative-bonus" alterering of dynamic range. So that I can use NeoScene as standalone and do batch work - MOV > CFAVI. Which was why I bought it.

For the Cineform conversions I did before I started to use MXF and U-AVI I had to do them from whithin Vegas.
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My request is only valid of course if the codec as such is good and performs well. Let's see at their next update.



Best
Lars


Is it like this: they ALTER the level and if you want it *unaltered* you have to pay a lot more?

Comments

ECB wrote on 6/9/2009, 1:25 PM
Cineform can pass back 0 - 255 or 16 - 235 depending on the request from the NLE. Vegas works in 16 - 235. Read David Newman's comments in this thread http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=646144. You may want to read Glen Chans http://www.glennchan.info/articles/articles.html. Glen Chan's articles cleared up the color space issues for me.

Ed B
LarsHD wrote on 6/9/2009, 3:21 PM
Ed, I'm talking about the forced 16-235 when neoScene is used as standalone. Vegas works in 16-235. Or in 0-255.
farss wrote on 6/9/2009, 3:25 PM
From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YUV

"Y' values are conventionally shifted and scaled to the range [16, 235] rather than using the full range of [0, 255]. This confusing practice derives from the MPEG standards and explains why 16 is added to Y' and why the Y' coefficients in the basic transform sum to 220 instead of 255. U and V values, which may be positive or negative, are summed with 128 to make them always positive"

The bigger question is why does Vegas insist on the codecs making this transform when video is not recorded as R'G'B'.

Bob.
GlennChan wrote on 6/9/2009, 10:29 PM
All the plugins and stuff expect the data as RGB, not Y'CbCr.

*There are two flavours of RGB when it comes to Vegas (computer and studio RGB) and this can be a mess since Vegas doesn't really indicate when the signal is studio or computer RGB... so you have to sort that out manually. Discussed in my article.
farss wrote on 6/9/2009, 11:53 PM
"All the plugins and stuff expect the data as RGB, not Y'CbCr."

Do you mean ALL plugins in ALL NLE's or just in the "stuff" in Vegas?

Bob.
TeetimeNC wrote on 6/10/2009, 7:28 AM
A few months ago when 0-255 vs 16-235 was discussed here I decided to test it. I created a short Blu Ray disk rendered 16-235 and played it using a friend's player and Samsung 52 inch HD monitor. I thought it looked terrible compared to anything else we watched - blacks were very washed out.

Jerry
ECB wrote on 6/10/2009, 7:51 AM
Jerry,

I suggest you read Glen Chan's article on workflow. For example, if your project was an 8 bit project using video clips to DVD you do not need to do anything. Everything should be studio RGB. There are most likely superwhites that should be should be remapped to legal values or clipped. That's it. If you are applying Levels Computer RGB to Studio RGB it will look bad.

Ed B
GlennChan wrote on 6/10/2009, 3:43 PM
Do you mean ALL plugins in ALL NLE's or just in the "stuff" in Vegas?
Vegas.