Johnny:

Delivery is to PC. I understand you are saying the CineFrame30 should be treated as standard 1440x1080x60i as far as the project is concerned.

I wished to render to 1440x1080x30p as an .m2t but the only template I could see was the 760x30p. Do I need make a custom template?

PS: This is some test shoots I made while stranded in the Mojave Desert missing the Sony party!

Johnny:

Please explain "FX1 is acquiring .. at 60i .. that's the only way...... " So what is the cineframe30 doing for me? Are you saying don't use anything save the default 60i and do all else in post? Do I set Cineform ConnectHD to progressive or leave at default? Are you saying that if I do shoot cineframe30 I should still have my project setting as for 60i? I want, if possible, to end with true 30p for m2t files for computer display.

Michael

Here's a start.

adamwilt 30p

Darryl

Thanks Grob, but I've read this article and it has little to do with my question. It is in no way relevant to Vegas or Cineform capture and Vegas work flow. Anyone else got input? Johnny you asked me to post my delivery; are you there?

Michael

1080-60i is the correct template.

For the sake of the following discussion, the NTSC frame rate is 29.97fps, but I'll call it 30, and there are 59.94 fields per second, but I'll call it 60.)

In normal 60i, there are 30 frames per second consisting of two fields. Each field is captured 1/60th of a second apart to make a temporal resolution of 60 discrete images per second. In Cineframe30, it is essentially only capturing an image every 1/30th of a second but storing it in 60i, both fields will be from the identical place in time instead of 1/60th of a second apart. The result will be a 30p temporal resolution, just the result for which you are looking.

John

Thanks John: That makes a lot a lot of good sense. Just one more ? When I RENDER to m2t do I then (NTSC world) go HDV 1080x30p or 1080x60i with progressive selected in custom?

1080-60i with "progressive only" selected in the custom setting would be 1080-30p. Technically, it shouldn't make any difference whether you use 60i or 30p because your source footage is 30p. However, at 60i, your transitions would be rendered interlaced at 60i with a temporal resolution twice as high as 30p. This wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing since it would eliminate the 30p "stutter" during the transitions but, if you're going to display your finished product on a progressive display, setting the render to 30p is the way to go.

John

So John, does what you have just said not "imply" that to shoot in 60i (with Sony FX1/Z1) and let Vegas render to 30p is BETTER than using Cineframe30 in the first place? It's my feeling this is so but I'm sure I've herd Spot and other experts say Cineframe30 has its good points?

Now the Cineform ConnectHD manual says; "Converting 1080i60 to 720p30 is implemented by 1) selecting "De-interlace 1080i sources", and 2) choosing 1280 x 720p as the "Re-size Video." How does this relate to our topic? Does it add anything to the boil if using Cineform?

Michael

Michael,

Well, as far as I know, the Z1 is basically field-doubling to achieve its 30p effect, therefore it doesn't have twice the vertical resolution of 60i that one would expect from true 30p. True 30p will give you half the temporal resolution of 60i, but with twice the vertical resolution. Real 1080.

I would suspect that the same effect as the Z1 in Cineframe30 can be achieved in Vegas using Mike Crash's "smart deinterlacer" plugin on 60i footage. In fact, for those parts of a frame that have no motion from field to field, Mike's deinterlacer could, in theory, actually give you the increased vertical resolution of real 30p. Just drop his deinterlacer on the preview window in order to affect the entire project and render as 30p. This is probably a better way to go to 1280x720p, since a standard de-interlace takes one field (which has a vertical resolution of 540) and has to interpolate it up to 720.

One of the reasons I opted for a V1 was that it has true 30p and 24p. I'm on record as not being a big fan of the 24p look, but I have used the 30p mode for stuff that will be shown exclusively on a computer or where I might be looking for a little temporal stutter for effect.

Both the 30p and 24p of the V1 are recorded to tape at 60i, 24p has the 3:2 pulldown cadence that we have come to expect from years of watching 24p films on 60i TVs. 30p has a temporal stutter that approximates the temporal look of film, but without having to think about potential 3:2 pulldown issues.

John

But this says that it's best to capture 60i, edit in 60i, and then render to 30p when all is done. IE Cineframe30/24 are for people without a NLE. If you have Vegas what possible use is there for cineframe30?

I note that when you capture 60i to the Vegas timeline you only get 30 frames per minuet displayed. Vegas must combine the two interlaced fields for timeline display?

IF you are deinterlacing by applying the Mike Crash deinterlacer to the timeline FX should you do this after all transition and generated media are done to avoid the 30p edit stutter? Is Mike Crash De-interlacing better than just rendering a 60i project out to 30p? Which brings me to another point. Why does Vegas render NOT have a template for "HDV 1440x080x30p"?

Remember my goal here is to get HDV 1440x1080 in m2t form for display on computers at 30p.

A frame of interlaced video consists of two fields, the second field of the frame was captured 1/60th of a second after the first field. (Or 1/50th of a second in PAL format.) Vegas displays it in frames.

If you had shot this at 60i and were going to be showing this on anything but a computer, you might want to apply the de-interlace filter on the source footage if you want the 30p stutter for effect and render it out at 60i to keep the temporal resolution of the transitions smooth. Let the display device sort out the deinterlacing (unless it happens to be an interlaced display.)

Since your project is to be shown on a progressive computer display, it's best to render it as 30p. Since you shot this in Cineframe30, your video is already a faux 30p, so the deinterlace filter is unnecessary. Selecting the "progressive only" option in the custom settings in the Vegas render will cause Vegas to render all its motion, transitions and generated media in 30p and you will end up with a true 30p render. (Remember to save the template and then Vegas will have a 30p template.)

John

John: Agreed, and this is what I have done. The question of my last post was more like what to do in the future. Do I stay shooting Cinframe30 or do I shoot 60i and let Vegas render do the conversion? It just seemed to me that as 60i has more information than Cineform30 that this would be best, but if so, what use is Cineform30?

Michael

"what use is Cineform30?"

Probably none.

If it were me, I'd shoot 60i and de-interlace if that what I wanted. It seems to work quite well. If you wanted 60i in the future, all you'd have to do is remove the filter and re-render at 60i.

"my goal here is to get HDV 1440x1080 in m2t form for display on computers at 30p."

Putting an m2t on somebody's desktop and expecting that to open when they click on it...all bets are off. I'd assume that doesn't ever work unless you have seen it work on every individual computer the file will be displayed on.

Assuming you are using Windows Media Player for playback, your best bet (IMO) is to edit the footage in a Vegas project using the

HDV 720-30p (1280x720, 29.970 fps)

project template. And then render to Windows Media with the

6 Mbps HD 720-30p Video

Windows Media render template.

This method will let you edit in a project that closely matches what your final delivery will be. WMV at this bitrate looks good played full screen in WMP, and most decent computers can play it smoothly.

There are 8 million+ possible variants to the above workflow you could try. This one works for sure.