Cinescore workflow

Dan Sherman wrote on 6/7/2006, 5:28 AM
Curious to know how others are using Cinescore.
Just finished project by importing .avi file into Cinescore timeline.
Adding music and rendering audio and video from Cinescore.
Worked OK,---but there may be a better workflow.
As near as I can tell there appears to be no way ot add score to a project file, a "veggie".
Have I got that wrong?

Comments

Grazie wrote on 6/7/2006, 6:44 AM
Yeah - Can you fdrameserve into it?
filmy wrote on 6/7/2006, 7:26 AM
What Grazie said - frameserve. It is what I do with SmartSound Movie Maestro/SonicFire Pro. It is also best for doing scene to scene. Cinescore works on a Clip level do if you don't frame serve you either have to render out the entire production or each scene.

And you are correct - no way to import a veg file. I know others have other opions but for right now mine is that Cinescore is very limited in what it can do and is aimed at the "one click" crowd. As in just click a theme and let the program build it for you. I know it is just a version 1 release but not sure how far it could go because I think if you added "themes" to Acid you would already have a way more detailed program so the reverse is the more you add to Cinescore you will have Acid Pro, or Acid "lite" (Acid XMC, Acid Music Studio) which already exist. And betond that - you can already bring in Acid loops to Vegas so why not just add a "theme" button to Vegas?


ECB wrote on 6/7/2006, 9:41 AM
HI Sherman,

Take a look at the Cinescore tutorials http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/support/trainingvids.asp?prod=cinescore. The Cinescore tutorials will give you insight into the function, capabilities, and workflow. Great tutorials.

Ed B
fldave wrote on 6/7/2006, 10:53 AM
Can't you just render as a .wav file, then import that into your Vegas project?
Grazie wrote on 6/7/2006, 11:22 AM
fl?

I don't think we are actually looking for a way to produce a "finished" rendered audio file to use within Vegas. What we are trying to attempt to "dig-out" is a slippery, slick way of keeping the video-narrative paramount and "live" without needing to resort to interim processes that could get in the way of creating that same story.

Grazie

Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/7/2006, 11:32 AM

Uhhh,,, Grazie, I didn't understand your reply to Dave. What are you trying to do?


Dan Sherman wrote on 6/7/2006, 12:42 PM
Required viewing.
Thanks Ed B.
Anyone who has doubts about Cinescore, have a look.
Powerful tool.
At least for such as I with the tin ear!
May seem like a music sausage factory to the musicians among us.
But sometimes that's exactly what I need,----links of tasty music.
A lot of it can be as good as some of the royalty free stuff. Some but not all.
And I like the build it, rather than buy it option.
Have used Cinescore in one porject delivered this week and it has already more than paid for itself.
And that was before I viewed the,----whadya call 'em Graze,---tutes!
Two thumbs way up for my money.
The lights are on in Madison and everybody's home. Can't wait for Vegas 7,---OK,---then----I'll wait.
Fine.
Grazie wrote on 6/7/2006, 1:44 PM
Jay - if you want to add a Video FX to an event - you add it and SEE the result immediately

If you want to add some Text to an UPPER track, you see the results immediately.

If you want to move stuff in 3-d space, you see the results immediately.

OK?

Now, I haven't yet downloaded CineScore so I'm assuming that you create a piece of music and "try-it-out" against a video clip BACK in Vegas? Yes? To do this Dave is saying to render a WAV file. I'm saying that this "adds" another layer of workings that would be good NOPT to have.

If a want to feel/see/hear the results of CineScore I want to be able to use it from WITHIN Vegas. Yes? Adding another step - rendering a WAV file - isn't what I feel Vegas is trying to become - allowing me to see and feel the whole video exploratory, creative experience.

Going IN and OUT of SF and saving AS a WAV-Take BACK in Vegas is about as far away as I want to wander?

Now do you see?

Grazie


ps: And just when can I see my graphics package - PSP - from within Vegas - as i can from within DVDA3?

Jay Gladwell wrote on 6/7/2006, 1:53 PM

Okay, I see what you're saying, now.

Thanks for the clarification. And do excuse my being so obtuse (some days are better than others).


ECB wrote on 6/7/2006, 2:07 PM
Grazie,
There is a plug-in installed with Cinescore that my ultimately be used for... Until then why not "try it out" (music track) against the video clip in Cinescore? Personally, I don't know how to easly sychronize (position the hints) in the music and with the video unless they are on the same timeline or adjusting the music track length to mach the event...

Ed B
Paul_Holmes wrote on 6/7/2006, 2:56 PM
Most often my cuts are done to the music I've chosen. However, after nearly completing a project (the final YUV file) I like to go through it and throw in a little music or a sound effect here or there and then make the final MPG. I can see how Cinescore will be excellant for this, allowing me to add just a little more spice to the soundtrack at the completion of the project. So I'm sure I'll buy it eventually. Don't have Smartsound (although I've used it with Premiere in the past), so now at least Sony has a proper product to replace it with, and at a decent price.
farss wrote on 6/7/2006, 3:09 PM
Grazie,
NO!
You take your video into Cinescore (or SFPro) and create the music to match the video. In both products you get to see and hear the finished sound.

Two issues though to be aware of.

You have to render out your project to avi or QT etc.

No way that I can see to reatin markers between Vegas and Cinescore or SFPro.

The latter is a real PIA. Spend days editing something and by then you know where you want to change mood, having to go through the rendered video in SFPro or Cinescore to find those same places again is a pain.

Bob.
Chienworks wrote on 6/7/2006, 3:25 PM
Hmmm. I suppose having text in the video frame that echoes the markers might be handy. I seem to recall someone wrote a script once that added text events to a video that contained the marker text. Maybe i'm hallucinating though. But if such a thing exists, you could run that script, render out a version of your video to use in CineScore, and be able to see the marker text overlayed in the video frame. After finishing up in CineScore you can render a .wav file to take back to Vegas for a final render, without the text events of course.
fldave wrote on 6/7/2006, 3:48 PM
Bob,

"You have to render out your project to avi or QT etc"

I can see that as a limitation.

Suggestions, Sony: Utilize markers in the file, Veg Import (and see the markers there).

Not too much of a stretch from the Vegas editing timeline functionality. I still plan on buying it.

Edited:
Oh wait! That would make it work like a plugin in Vegas :)
filmy wrote on 6/7/2006, 7:50 PM
Just to maybe be a bit more clear in what I was saying -

You can frameserve the video to Cinescore so you don't have to render. You do need to render out your "final" music however.

Reading the added posts since my post some things to also keep in mind - there is "picture" to look at and yes, you can preview real time. However the limits are that while Cinescore allows for "hints" they really don't work all that well. So, for example, you want certian tempo changes to fall at a certian point you can feel free to add a "hint" at that point however don't expect anything to happen there if Cinescore doesn't want it to happen. Remember that this music, while loop based, is already pre-composed so you can't go in and adjust the individual loops to match your cuts or timing (not the clip length, which can be adjusted obviously, but the timing as in, say, syncing a kick, kick, snair hi hat pattern to fall on certian cuts for example.)

Another limit is that you have to pre-render the music for the timeline. So what you have to do is open up a seperate window that will preview whatever themes and variations while the video plays. This is not on the timeline - the video and music are sort of free running, for lack of a better term, until you click the ok button and the music renders and puts itself onto the timeline. As has been pointed out - there are no markers to guide you in this.
Grazie wrote on 6/8/2006, 12:38 AM
filmy, thanks for re-underlining/scoring the point I was making.

In this instance Frameserving is a kinda making a nested veg within CineScore - yeah?

Grazie
ECB wrote on 6/8/2006, 4:37 AM
Filmy,

You can have Hints in Cinescore that can happen anywhere not just at the next musical change.
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=461788&Replies=6

This is quote found in the above thread from Sony on that subject:

"Finally, if you are clever with "Edit Generated Music", you can have mood, arrangement & intensity hints happen *anywhere*, not just at the next musical change:

1) Generate Music - start with Mood X
2) Split the music on the timeline where you want the mood change
3) Edit Generated Music for the 2nd clip.
4) Change the mood to Mood Y

Now the mood change happens immediately. "

On your second point:

"Another limit is that you have to pre-render the music for the timeline. So what you have to do is open up a seperate window that will preview whatever themes and variations while the video plays. This is not on the timeline - the video and music are sort of free running, for lack of a better term, until you click the ok button and the music renders and puts itself onto the timeline. As has been pointed out - there are no markers to guide you in this."

"This is not a timeline - the video and music are sort of running free? " When you select Generate Music or Recreate Generate Music, pick a theme and hit OK there is a timeline and the video and audio are in sync, not "free runnung" so you can accurately place hints and check results. When finsihed you click ok and the musc is rendered to the project timeline.



Dan Sherman wrote on 6/8/2006, 10:45 AM
Workflow as I am beginning to understand it.
Render Vegas timline to .avi>import into Cinescore>apply music, transitions>render to .wav>open .wav file in Vegas>drag into project file>fine tune>Bob's yer uncle?
filmy wrote on 6/8/2006, 2:22 PM
Ok, nit picking, but the point was what the program does and what its limits are - so yeah you can render out a sample, add it to the timeline and, as you say, Split the music on the timeline where you want the mood change, but that brings us back to the whole issue of this thread. I mean I could point out that because a "creative" person can go into the themes folder, import all the individual loops into Vegas or Acid and arrange them anyway they wanted to Cinescore is a great tool. But to me that sort of defeats the idea of actually having Cinescore at all.

And you say/ask about my sync/free running comment. If you read what I said I said "For lack of a better term". Using Vegas as an example. If I place a music clip on the timeline it is in "sync". In Cinescore you do not drop the music onto any timeline. You can either click on the "Generate Music" button or right click on the timeline and choose "Insert Generated music". What happens now? Exactly what I said. Another window pops open - ok, actually two windows. The "Theme Chooser" and the "Generated Music" windows. To choose a theme you click on it - now in the "Theme Chooser" window there is not any sort of video preview at all. You just go for a feel by previewing the theme and its variations and choose ok. Now once you have the theme picked you get tossed over to the "Generated Music" window and now you have the preview with video - or as I had said, "preview whatever themes and variations while the video plays" - and as has been pointed out the video preview is not part of this window, it is still over in the main UI..so chances are you will have to move the pop up window around a bit.

On the same train of thought - so now I go and count off where I want the "hints" and dop them in. Now I do a test playback before I, again for lack of a better term, "lock it in". In my testing not one of the "hints" actually hits where I have my markers. So to me this whole thing is somewhat usless because to do what we are talking about here, I now have to render out the music, and now, on the main timeline, I go to where each of my "hints" are, split the track, click on the music note so I can "recreate generated music" in order to have the changes exaclty where I want them...and in doing this now the window opens up again so Ican make changes, and then click ok for the media to render out again.

For me this just adds way too many extra steps and if I am going to do that than I may as well just start from the source loops and build it in Vegas or Acid. Remember that each time you click ok you build a theme to a wave file.

And to Grazie - In this instance Frameserving is a kinda making a nested veg within CineScore - yeah?

Yeah - you could say that. In all these years of framserving I never thought of it that way but it makes sense.