I'm not trying to find out if Vegas 5 is similar to 3 & 4. In general, I'm trying to find out how to use the Trimmer effectively, and specifically, how to exit the region select mode.

As I mentioned in my original post, the manual gives no clue. There are exactly 12 keyboard commands for the Trimmer (according to the keyboard commands chart) and none of them exits the region select mode. The only way I can do this is close the file in the trimmer and then re-open it.

What am I doing wrong? As soon as I select a region my cursor changes to a left-right arrow and all movement of the mouse cause my selected region to grow/shrink. I simply want to exit this mode and contine playing the file in the trimmer immediately following the region I have just added to the timeline.

> Can anyone explain how to use the Trimmer in Vegas 5 effectively?

I can try.

> I must constantly re-size the scroll bar with its horrible, non-standard technique of grabbing the little vertical lines and dragging left or right.

Non-standard? Who set the standard on scroll bar behavior? ;-) I have my mouse wheel set up to scroll and so a simple flick of the finger upward on the wheel adjusts the scroll amount. You can also use the up/down arrow keys to do this.

> Once the scroll bar becomes small enough to view sections of the file properly it is now too awkward to use for scrolling.

I assume you have a very large file and the scroll bar is too small to manipulate? Just hover your mouse over the timecode at the top of the trimmer window (right above the video) and the cursor will turn into a hand. Left click the mouse and drag left and right to get very precise movement of the trimmer window. (this works in the timeline too)

> Is there any way to automatically open a file in the Trimmer with the scroll bar initially set to an appropriate size?

No, it opens to the while file length by default so you can trim it. (it is a trimmer you know) ;-)

> Once I have selected my first region and added it to the timeline, I am essentially stopped from doing anything further.

You can make another region by clicking outside the first and dragging again. You might want to change the region behavior by going into Options > Preferences > Editing tab and check Collapse loop region when to time selection present. This will let you just click on the trimmer or timeline and it will deselect the looped region. I think this is the behavior you were expecting. Use the Backspace key to get the last several regions back again.

> How can I make thumbnails in the Trimmer line-up approximately with their true position in the file.

The thumbnails are just estimates for any zoom level other that a single frame. Use the preview window to see the actual frame you are on. It changes dynamically as you move the in and out points for the selection.

> Every time I click play I get static frames updated every few seconds - even in draft mode.

That’s very strange. Your PC is certainly powerful enough. How did you capture these files? What codec did you use? Does the audio stutter as well?

Bottom line:

Having said all this, I never use the trimmer and don’t know many Vegas editors that do. Usually you just drop your clips on the timeline and edit as you go removing parts you don’t need and keeping the ones you like. Speeding through the footage with the JKL shuttle keys and using Alt-Arrows to move in single frame increments for edits. You might want to learn the shortcut keys if you really want to streamline your workflow.

~jr

> Non-standard? Who set the standard on scroll bar behavior? ;-)

Microsoft did. They publish a user interface style guide directed at programmers (such as myself) that is intended to make Windows applications easy to learn. Essentially there are three components to scroll bar sizes - total size, page size and line size. While the meaning of page size and line size are somewhat vague when it comes to a file in the Trimmer, take a look at how horizontal scroll bars work in virtually any standard Windoows application - for example a text editor - the horizontal scroll bar is set to equal approximately one page/screen content and use of the scroll bar is obvious..

> [The Trimmer] opens to the while file length by default so you can trim it. (it is a trimmer you know) ;-)

OK, so let's say the Trimmer is not the correct editing tool for me. My typical project consists of a single 30 minute video that I need to load and then select about five or size 30 second sections and place them on the timeline. I find this virtually impossible to do with the Trimmer. I have tried dropping the file onto the timeline, but editing that ways seemed to be even more tedious. It was very difficult to move clips around and make them meet end-to-end. Selecting a region (non-linearly) in the Trimmer and then dragging it to the end of the timeline should be very easy - but it isn't.

> What codec did you use? Does the audio stutter as well?

I generally use WMV files that have been encoded, but I'm not too sure of the specific codec - would have to go and look. No, the audio does not stutter.

Editing on the timeline is fine for projects that are basically shot in same order as they finish.

My projects contain say 6 one hour clips, and any part of any one may finish up at any part of the program. The Trimmer is where I access the whole clip and select, label and sort selections for use later. I don't want them cluttering up the timeline for weeks!

For immediate editing it doesn't get much easier than drag to select and drag to timeline, or use keyboard shortcut A.

Your wmv is highly compressed, so Vegas has to decompress it on the fly for preview. It is fundamentally a DV based editor, and DV is a far better medium to edit.

I second Johnny Roy's comments, I don't use the trimmer at all--ever. I think of it as a legacy tool for folks who had to use it with other NLE's--not all that needed in Vegas.

I place my items on the timeline and split (CTRL S) and crop as I go. I also turn my snap to grid options on, along with quantitize to frames. If I am only dealing with one video, I also turn on Auto Ripple (I turn it off once I start adding my composites). My clips butt up to each other very easily (especially if I trip both receiving and added edges with quantitize on).

Hope this helps.

<I have tried dropping the file onto the timeline, but editing that ways seemed to be even more tedious. It was very difficult to move clips around and make them meet end-to-end. Selecting a region (non-linearly) in the Trimmer and then dragging it to the end of the timeline should be very easy - but it isn't.>

There are icons to click on, in the Trimmer, which will put a region either to the immediate right or left of wherever you have the cursor on the timeline. Once on the timeline, the default is for clips to "snap" end to end along the same timeline, and you can use the mouse to then drag the ends of the clips and the "S" key to split a selected clip, as well as drop multiple instances of the same clip, or different parts of the clip, in any order on the timeline, either directly onto another clip or on a separate track above it.

I use Vegas not because of how difficult it was for me, but how easy. It seems to me that the competing NLE software programs that established various editing conventions years ago, such as Avid, FCP and Premiere, are comparatively difficult to use, and slow down the workflow.

On the other hand, if your point of departure is Windows Movie Maker, it sounds like you are trying to skip the learning curve that comes with Vegas, which is an application that began as an audio editor and in many instances uses completely rethought methods of editing video, based not on prior conventions but on innovation and, often, greater efficiency.

> Microsoft did... for example a text editor - the horizontal scroll bar is set to equal approximately one page/screen content and use of the scroll bar is obvious..

Sorry that was meant to be a joke. I’ve been a programmer since before Windows even existed and I lived through the Common User Access (CUA) phase and User Centered Design, etc. I think there are times when applications need to evaluate the balance between a common look and feel and a smooth workflow and Vegas has done a good job at that. The horizontal scroll bar is not a page browser, it’s a zoom in and out. That’s why it makes sense (at least to me) that the slider gets bigger and smaller with the zoom level and that you can actually drag the zoom level. Perhaps it makes sense to me because all of the Sony applications, Vegas, ACID Pro, Sound Forge, etc. work this way so it just seems natural to me. I realize its non-standard to you.

> My typical project consists of a single 30 minute video that I need to load and then select about five or size 30 second sections and place them on the timeline

I would agree with you that the trimmer is probably good approach in your case since you only need 10% of the total content. You might want to detach the trimmer and have it float in its own window. This will allow it to be bigger and perhaps you can get more accurate that way. The JKL shuttle keys work in the trimmer too as do the Alt+Arrow for frame accurate movement. Once you’ve stopped at the in point, hold the Shift key and left-click the out point to get an instant region. I think you just need to get use to using the shortcut keys to navigate the trimmer.

> I generally use WMV files

As others have mentioned, this is not optimal for Vegas because it’s highly compressed. I don’t know what your source is but you should be using DV files with Vegas if at all possible.

~jr

Let's start with editing WMV files. In my experience these perform very, very, very badly in Vegas AND they seem to leak memory. So render them to a new track as either DV25 or uncompressed.

As for the trimmer. Yeah, a lot of people don't use it. However, the point of a trimmer is to work with individual media files-to trim them up and make subclips, to apply media FX, time FX, etc to the subclips, and to put the subclips on the timeline. Vegas' trimmer can do some of that but my impression of the trimmer was that they knew an NLE should have one but they didn't have a clue why. Okay, that's my criticism.

As for your problem with the trimmer? I tried to reproduce it and the only way I can do it is to keep my mouse above the ruler area. Try using your mouse directly on the clip. That should help with your selection problems. To mark and save a region in the trimmer hit "R". To make marks, hit "M". To scroll the window right and left you can drag the scrollbar handle, drag the ruler, or press "Alt+Shift" and use the mouse wheel. Vegas uses the mouse wheel a LOT.

Keep trying and read the manual. You'll get used to it. It isn't hard.

Rob Mack

I thought i'd try a crack at this one. When I virst used Vegas 3 demo (& V4 beta) I had a REAL hard time using the trimmer (comming from premiere 6). After a month I didn't use it. Late last year I started using it again, and have found it very useful.

"When I open a file in the Trimmer the first problem that I have is..."

Ok, this is normal. Infact, in almost ANY windows program i've use this happens (audio/video based anyway). The way I deal with moving about the trimmer is when I have my mouse over the trimmer, click where my estimated clip I want it (i normaly know. After all, I go through my footage BEFORE I start editing to have a rough idea of what I want), then use the mouse wheel to zoom in. When I get to my start point, I hit the "[" key. It makes the in point. Zoom out (with the mouse wheel), click where the end of my clip should be, zoom in, find it, hit the "]" button to make the end point, then hit "R" to make it a region (regions are saved with the media file, if you setup the prefs that way, and next time you open the project the regions will be in the file). Hit "TAB" until I get the A/V selection I want (video only, audio only, both), then drop/drag

"Once I have selected my first region and added it to the timeline, I am essentially stopped from doing anything further...."

Now the next part of youe post. :) If it's repeating, you have the trimmer "repeat" function on. Since the trimmer acts just like the timeline( play, pause, repeat, etc), you need to turn that off. Once you turn it off, just like in the timeline, playback stops when it hits the end of the selected area (blue highlighted area). Click anywhere in that area (or anywhere you wanna go in the trimmer) and the selection will be gone & you can play on (that's why I make the regions: so I know what parts of the file I selected/used for later!).

"How can I make thumbnails in the Trimmer line-up..."

Ok, unlike other NLE's (their default setting anyway), Vegas uses the preview window for timeline/trimmer preview. So, any time you play the trimmer, it shows up in the preview window. But, since you're talking about thumbnails, you eigther already know that or don't care. :) The thumbnails, by default, show a certain spot in the trimmer. Under each thumbnail, there's a small grey "dot", normaly on the left of the thumbnail. That's the frame it's showing. Also, when you move in the trimmer (using arrow keys) the dot moves, & the thumbnail updates to show you the current frame. Whe you get beyond the 1/2 way point between one thumbnail & the next (or previous), it starts updating the next thumbnail. If you zoom in almost all the way, each thumbnail will be 1 frame (I say almost because you CAN zoom in more then 1 frame. Since Vegas allows you to edit in the sample, 1 frame can span MANY thumbnails).

Work with Vegas. DITCH windows movie maker and DO NOT use it. Keep your Vegas manual PDF on a shortcut on the start bar. Unless you force yourself to learn how to use Vegas, you'll never learn it. After all, if you didn't want to program in C++ & kept going back ot BASIC to do things, how would you learn C? :) (I used to program. It's fun. And even though MS sets "standards," they also change their software to NOT use the same "standards." :)

>>I think of it as a legacy tool for folks who had to use it with other NLE's...

Ya know, I actually used the trimmer for the first time the other day and it was great!

This was for the purpose of extracting a sub clip.

It actually was very helpful for the purpose of extracting a sub clip. I don't know much other use for it, although I am sure some folks have thier reasons.

When I capture tapes I do it all as one big file. I use the trimmer to chop up these large files before placing them on the timeline.

I open my file in the trimer then place marker at all the begin and end points of the stuff I want to use. Then I just select with snapping on an hit the add from cursor button, go on to the next pair of markers and repeat on down the line.

If you have a set time these clips need to be you can set the size of the selection bar directly in the third time box at the bottom of the trimmer. Just type in 00:00:30.00 and a selection is made. You can drag this to any point in your file, double click on it to select and then hit the add from cursor button.
The cursor even moves to the end of the clip in the main time line ready for the next trimmed item.

I don't like to use the tab to zoom either. I use the up/down arrow keys to get down to a single frame or zoom all the way out to jog quicker. Just right arrow to the point you want to use, then alt+arrow to fine adjust then hit "M" to stick a marker there.

This works very fast and allows for a cleaner timeline and less mistakes while editing.