Converting 30p to 24p

Tien23 wrote on 11/21/2014, 2:47 AM
My videos are intended for Blu-ray output. The videos consist of photo slideshows than pan horizontally across the pictures and many animations that are only in 30p. I have found that rendering to 24p causes the animations to look horrible and photo panning to look choppy. As such, I have been producing 60i Blu-Ray videos. Does anyone know of a way to improve picture quality while maintaining the smoother movement facilitated by the interlaced format?

I am preparing a Blu-ray project with the source material in 30p. Let's say I did actually decide to convert it to 24p. First off, I will lose 6 different frames every second which will cause choppy motion. When the Blu-Ray plays back on a TV at 30Hz or 60Hz, it will automatically apply a 2:3 pull down which will only add to the judder/choppiness. Seems to me I am better off rendering to 60i. However, I was thinking about another method that *might* reduce the number from 6 dropped frames a second down to 5 a second. This will likely produce no noticeable quality improvement but it does make me wonder. Let's say I take my 30p film and render it out to 120fps. Now, each source frame should be repeated 4 times (30x4=120). Now, render it again but as 24fps. So 120/24=5, the software, assuming it processes this way, will grab every fifth frame. In doing so, it will drop 1 original source frame every 5 frames which should equate to 5 dropped source frames a second. To illustrate:

120fps frames: AAAABBBBCCCCDDDDEEEEFFFFGGGGHHHHIIIIJJJJKKKK
Render down to 24fps: ABCDFGHIK (notice that E and J) have been dropped.

Of course, the TV will still apply a 2:3 pull-down to play it at 30fps, assuming it is not a special TV that can be manually set to play back at 24fps. This will likely not produce any significant difference, but I wonder if it would work.

As my videos have animated titles and pans across still images, I will likely stick with 60i. However, can a Blu-Ray be authored to include multiple formats on the same disc? In other words, let’s say I start shooting in 24p in the future. Can the film play back in 24p, but the menu with heavy animation and text play in 60i?

Comments

TheHappyFriar wrote on 11/21/2014, 6:11 AM
Can you render out your animations again? If so, just choose the desired framerate. Anything you do in Vegas (ie pan/crops, project = desired framerate, right?) should be fine. My HDTV (was) 720p, so if I rendered 24p & the BD speci supports it, I would have no pulldown, it would be 24p. Unless you're watching on an SD tube, but I don't know of ANYONE who bought a BD player for a tube TV.

BUT, if you can't re-render your animations (IE given to you by someone else) then do this: "stretch" then to 24 frame per second & disable resampling on them. Vegas will ditch frames for that speed up.

But a more important question: if your source is 30fps why render @ 24? :?
OldSmoke wrote on 11/21/2014, 6:28 AM
I also see no point in converting 30p down to 24p. 30p played as 60i should be fine.

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Tien23 wrote on 11/23/2014, 1:14 AM
Unfortunately I am stuck with the 30fps animations, However, I have never thought of stretching the video out to 24fps. This makes sense though! Thanks!
JohnnyRoy wrote on 11/23/2014, 6:37 AM
Open the properties on the 30p animation, Disable Resample, and set the Playback Rate to 0.800 and you'll get 23.976 playback with no lost frames.

~jr
Chienworks wrote on 11/23/2014, 8:52 AM
"Let's say I take my 30p film and render it out to 120fps. Now, each source frame should be repeated 4 times (30x4=120). Now, render it again but as 24fps. So 120/24=5, the software, assuming it processes this way, will grab every fifth frame. In doing so, it will drop 1 original source frame every 5 frames which should equate to 5 dropped source frames a second."

If that is the route you want to go then there is a WAAAAAYYYY simpler method. Disable resampling. Done.

This is a good thing to do if you want to retain the original speed of the animation. The other suggestions for slowing it down are the way to go if you don't care about the speed and want to retain all the frames.

Now, as far as the 0.800 speed recommendation, this is good if your original is 29.97fps, and it may very well be even though you say 30p. However, if it really is 30p then the needed factor won't be exactly 0.800. The correct value is 0.7992, though you can't type in the 4th decimal place so you're stuck using 0.799. A better method is to set the project to match the source frame rate, drop the animation on the timeline, change the ruler to absolute frames, with the cursor at the end of the clip see how many frames long it is. Now change the project to the desired output frame rate, move the cursor so that the frame number matches the original number of frames, then Ctrl-stretch the clip out to meet the cursor. This will give you an exact frame-to-frame match regardless of how irrational the speed value might end up being and avoids your having to do any math at all. You don't even need to disable resampling if you do this because no resampling will happen.
johnmeyer wrote on 11/23/2014, 9:35 AM
Interlaced does not provide smoother playback. Instead it is the fact that NTSC interlaced provides sixty events per second. That is what provides the smoothness. Changing frame rates up to 120 fps and back down again will do absolutely nothing unless you actually create new, intermediate frames that didn't exist before. The two ways to do this are frame blending, which is what Vegas does when it resamples ("force resample" or "smart resample"); or motion estimation, which is what you get with Twixtor, FCP, Motionperfect, and various free tools available with AVISynth.

So, if you don't want judder when the camera pans, then shoot 60i or 60p. If you are stuck with the 24p or 30p material, then you need to render to 60i or 60p using Vegas' resample, or you need to export the footage to one of the programs I mentioned, and create 60i or 60p footage there.

Changing to 120 fps and back again will get you nowhere unless you do one of these two things.

Tien23 wrote on 11/26/2014, 5:56 PM
Awesome info. Thanks!