"I used to think that Liquid still had a one-up in some ways.... like the HDV batch capture/logger, but after working with the trimmer in Vegas (especially the new one), the batch capture system now seems pretty "old school", unnecessary, and restrictive."

A couple of points here but firstly I've never used or even seen any of the Liquid range.

1. I've rarely done it the "old school" way in any NLE. That could be good, that could be bad. After years of using Vegas I finally realised that I was a dead loss at editing. I've since wised up a LOT. I still don't do it the old school way but I do know a lot of people who are brilliant editors do. There could well be something in the process, I don't know but I'm far from convinced these days that the old school ways are such a bad idea.

2. I've come originally from using MGI VideoWave (no laughing) then Premiere 6 and the Vegas and now back to Ppro. I've worked a bit with others using FCP but not with my hands on the keyboard mostly. Thing is I don't see any differences. You can use any of these exactly the same way. You can do it the old school way or you can just throw it all on the T/L, rip it to bits and shuffle it around. I never once did it the old school way in Premiere so switching to Vegas was a piece of cake really. Well except I really missed that razor tool in Premiere, the clip split functionality in Vegas is a pain for me to use, still.

A few weeks back I did look over the shoulder of someone using Avid's Media Composer. He was doing it the same way I work in Vegas except much, much faster. That is one slick system if as the editor said, you are just editing. Forget CC and compositing, at that it's pretty sad but that's not what he earns his living doing.

Now I could have really missed something about Vegas and if that's true it's pretty bad that I've been using it for this long and not found editing Nirvana. So please anyone, if I've got this wrong please put me straight but be specific.
The other thing I find kind of curious is that recent updates to Vegas's trimmer in some ways move it closer to other NLEs, the ones that I keep hearing are so bad. Have SCS lost the plot or what?

Bob.

Well Liquid is more like PP than anything else so if you can run PP then you will have little trouble running Liquid, and it does have things like frame accurate HDV batch capture which is a hard thing to come by. But there are more effective way of doing things these days. Batch capture allows you to really home in on exactly what you want to work with on the time line, but then the trimmer does the same thing.... AND.... it allows you to go back and change the trim points afterwords. Batch capture doesn't do that. This is what I mean about "old school".... todays ways are more effective and provide more options. And I think that's what it comes down to... options. Every nle works the same in the end... it's how you get there that makes the difference.

I find that Vegas uses the time line much more efficiently. It doesn't just use the T/L to show timing relationships but rather it is an active tool within Vegas where a lot of action takes place. A simple disolve is a drag and overlap... couldn't be easier. And all the required info is flashed at you right on the T/L when you drag for that overlap. And that clip-split function.... I have it programmed into the mouse... splitting a clip is a simple twist of the thumb.

The more you have to run your cursor all over the screen, the longer things will take. In Vegas I find that it's ALL right there in front of you. I'm not opening tons of menu boxes and having to make/change settings to do something on the T/L.

There are times when I use the T/L itself as sort of a viewer. You can stretch it to any size and with that I'll blow up the T/L and zoom it in and presto, I can easily sync up multicams manually if I wish.

I think to a certain extent though Vegas will have little choice but to begin to conform to how others work (or at least offer similar options) so that users of other nle's can feel at home. And I think the trimmer/extra monitor is an unbelievably great, and unique idea. As with most other parts of Vegas, the trimmer is now a compact, multi function device that doesn't take up a lot of precious monitor space

I do find it interesting Bob that you start off by saying you can use these nle's in exactly the same way.... and end off by saying the trimmer changes move it closer to other nle's. Maybe it's just me but is that not some kind of contradiction?

I must admit though.... I haven't used PP too much. I downloaded the trial once and just took an INSTANT disliking to the interface. After an hour or so of constant crashing with their color corrector... I said forget it.

Bob, it's strange that you mention clip split as a pain:

In Premiere, as I remember it

Click 1 - Position cursor
Click 2 - Select Razor Tool
Click 3 - Split clip
Click 4 - Reselect normal editing Tool

Whereas in Vegas

Click 1 - Position cursor ( clicking on individual event if that is all that is to be split, or in empty track or above T/L if all Events are to be split

Hit "S" - Split Done - carry on editing

If that's still the case, Vegas wins by two less moves

"Maybe it's just me but is that not some kind of contradiction?"

No, not all. I was in the first place talking about work flow and in the second about the toolset.
Now if there's some NLE out there that will ONLY work using the old school way then that's for certain an NLE that has very real, major difference to Vegas.
I've seen but never really used a very old school linear edit system and I have done the really, really old school thing of cutting a work print and then sending that off for a neg match and a print. Some days I kind of have fond memories of that and some of the best editors still use that technology.

Funny though when these kinds of topics come up no one mentions the drop dead thing that is the killer feature in Vegas. It's an awesome multitracker with video editing kind of bolted on, still. That's what took me from Premiere to Vegas, that's what'll still keep me using Vegas. I know less than nothing about music but I love working with the stuff, I love recording live, I love mixing it. Still got a lot to learn and a lot of audio kit to buy.

Bob.

True except in Premiere the razor will only split one track!
When I've got lots of audio tracks and a few vision tracks hitting "S" can still freak me out. I've pretty much got it down now.
What really used to freak me out was the clip to the right of the split would become ungrouped, that seems to have improved in later releases of Vegas.
On the other hand in Premiere you really have to work hard to get vision and sound out of sync. From memory unlock, slip, lock back. Once it's locked it will never move. When I first went from Premier 6 or whatever it was to V4 I was amazed at how often I was getting vision and sound out of sync. That and the ripple editing, yikes.

Bob.

I've been using premiere lately too, and one thing I did was program the 'S' key to do split right on the timeline!
I also moved T/L zoom in/out to the up/down keys, cause I love that too.
I agree with a lot of what Bob was saying, that you can pretty much work in these NLEs the same way. I have tried an Avid Express as well, but that one seemed quite a bit different than me.

kairosmatt

I didn't know all those firsts either, but then again, I've just become accustomed to hearing myself say to friends who use FCP for a living, "what do you mean you can't do that?" or alternately, "it takes you HOW long?"

I just changed jobs so I don't do as much cutting (compared to doing it all day and night), but in the few times I have HAD to work on projects (either freelancing, or emergency fill-in) I've found myself staring at the FCP interface and just blinking. Eventually I got to the point where I'd just bring in my laptop, VP8, import files and get the work done...exporting EDLs so they'd have something to work with when the emergency passed. In one case when the FCP cutters saw the quality and speed of Vegas, they asked to sit down for a quick look at Vegas. In 30 minutes they were editing full-bore. Now, like the article said, there were those "I can't do without" moments, but once they got into their heads that they didn't need a two-monitor setup they were just tickled.

Have you ever seen an otherwise quiet, somewhat crusty 40 year old editor start to giggle and clap? I have. And for SONY and Vegas users everywhere, it's actually a pretty sight.

I really hope SONY sticks with the Sonic Foundry vision of Vegas as a NEW style editor. Sure, put in the option to have old cranky setups if you must (just don't make it bloatware), but the innovations are what really are what earned my long-term support and patience for Vegas etc.