And you can STILL copy comercial DVD's. It's just a matter of knowing how.

Agreed. Copy protection is overrated and the rule is, if they want to steal it bad enough, they will find a way. However, one thought that occurred to me...If you are hired to do a job, wouldnt the client own the copyright and the ability to do what they want as far as reproduction since I would assume it would fall under a "Work for Hire"?

Most Photographers keep the negatives and resell prints to the customer. I give the raw footage to the customer so I am not try to black mail them...just encourage :^) them to buy their duplicates from me with a nice case and print.

It's not like I am going to sue anyone if they circumvent the copy protect encode.

It's a living

i think, legally, that for a work fore hire the one who hired you owns the COPY finished product. The in-between stuff (footage, editing work, etc) is normally not included.

I'm pretty sure that for the hirer to own the rights (ie copy rights) they need to specify that that's what they want & not just a copy (this is where a contract comes in handy).

Since you cross-posted this in the DVD forum, I already gave a LONG answer there. Here's the link:

Don't Copy Protect

Sherman - set the Wayback Machine to the middle of the 20th Century.

In the 60's and 70's when I started shooting portraits, we had a studio fee and a print package price. The studio fee was high enough to pay for the shoot and the proofs. If the customer walked away, we made a little profit. The money was in selling prints. People were willing to pay $100 for a 16X20 black-and-white print. People realized that a darkroom and the knowledge needed to make good enlargements was not cheap, and they were willing to pay for that skill.

Now, 40-years later, most people know that they can easily scan and make a nearly exact copy of a digital print for $5 or less. It's pretty common knowledge and the printer manufacturers advertise that fact all the time and there are print kiosks in every photo department at K-Mart and Target. It's an insult to the customer's intelligence to imply that they need to pay $25 or more for a print they could make for $5.

The old paradigm just doesn't fly with the average consumer, and this is why you find more of them demanding the digital files of the events they hire photographers to shoot.

The old paradigm doesn't work with DVD's either, and for the same reason. Only five years ago I paid almost $300 for a Pioneer A04 DVD burner, and that was cheap then. I could get away with charging $50 to $100 per copy for DVD's because DVD burners were rare and expensive. Today, many home PC's come with a DVD-R drive built in and a trial copy of Nero and a DVD "authoring" program. DVD-RW drives can be purchased for less than $50. If I were to charge my customers $50 for a DVD, they wouldn't be customers for long.

My non-commercial clients pay me to take photographs or shoot video, followed by post-processing and editing. That's what they pay for. I'll give them a copy of the finished digital files or the edited video in AVI or MPEG format if they ask for it. Sure, I would like a big print order or an order for 1000 DVD's, but how can I charge them double, let alone ten times what they know it costs to make copies themselves? The customer isn't that stupid.

This is the new paradigm. This is what the consumers expect when we shoot their events. The photographers and videographers who insult their customers and accuse them of theft when they want to make their own copies are only hurting themselves in the long run.

Steve Mann
MannMade Digital Video

Steve Mann makes some great points but all is not lost. We have to remember that there are still a lot of people who can’t set the clock on their VCR. They don’t have a shiny new computer with a DVD writer and they would be glad to pay a modest fee for more copies. Heck, I have a neighbor who does have a shinny new PC with a DVD writer and they called me because they couldn’t figure out how to get music on a CD. Don’t assume that because the tools are there that people know how to use them.

I just went to my 30th high school reunion two weeks ago and I was shocked at how many of the graduating class of ’74 don’t have an email account! Don’t assume because you and I have ridden the wave of technology that the rest of our friends are surfing right behind us.

I just delivered a DVD to friend who wanted a slide show for their daughter’s anniversary. She called me to thank me and said that they rarely use their DVD player and so it took them a while to figure out how to get it to play through their TV but they finally did. Unfortunately, they could figure out how to get the TV back to normal so now they have a call in to the cable guy to come out and fit it. I just said, “I’m glad you enjoyed the DVD” and politely changed the subject.

So there is still a segment of the population that is willing to pay for copies if not for the convenience, then because they just don’t understand technology enough to do it themselves.

~jr

As simplistic as it sounds, my sales pitch for "why buy copies from me" if I were doing a wedding gig, would be along the lines of the professionalism of the appearance of the DVD silkscreen/printing, with a great photo of the bride/groom on the face of the DVD .. which they wouldn't get if they just used smartripper etc to copy it onto a plain silver disc...

for wedding/sentimental stuff, packaging counts, and that's where you have an edge in pitching "why should they pay $30-$50/copy for the DVD" ..

you might want to throw in something too with each "legit" copy of the DVD as a minor bonus they can only get from you ..

Ken
www.copywritinguniversity.com

> are you glad you went to the 30th reunion?

Yes, yes, yes! I am very glad I went. It depends on your perspective of your high school years. Some people would rather forget them. I view them as some of the best years of my life because I was a musician in a band at a time when rock clubs were abundant in the NYC and tri-state area and the same band would play copy tunes from Led Zeppelin, Santana, the Beatles, and the Allman Brothers Band all in the same set! It was common to start a set with Allman Bros. Don’t Want You Know More, followed by Led Zep. Dazed and Confused, into James Gang’s Walk Away. It was a great time to be a musician, but I digress.

I went to Yonkers High School. It was a melting pot where everyone walked to school and lived in the same ethnic neighborhoods. There were no bussing kids around; you went to school in the neighborhood you grew up in with all your friends. I also attended a small Catholic grammar school. There was one of each class (one 1st grade, one 2nd grade, etc.) That means the kids you went to grammar school with were in the same class together for eight (8) years. You become like brothers and sisters. You knew everyone else parents and family members. It was a close community.

Well... I went to the 10 and 20-year reunion and they were nice, but for the 30-year reunion, we used Classmates.com and you could see who was coming so I think it peaked more people’s interest. Some of the kids that I went to Catholic grammar school and high school with showed up. I spent 12 years of my life with these kids and then when you graduate, you all sort of move away and start new lives. It is insane. Anyway, seeing them after 30 years was like finding a lost family member.

It was sad to hear how many graduates had died. It was amazing to see how some people haven’t changed a bit while others were barely recognizable. It was good to see members of rival bands and catch up on what they have been doing. No one turned out to be famous or anything (but I’m still working on it for the 40th) ;-)

~jr

What cam do you use these days John.

thank you...

Let set the record straight. I definately do not insult my customers or even comment on duplicating their wedding video. I simply show them what they can get for $20.00 each CANADIAN about $9.00 us.

2 or 3 DVD disc with great artwork printed on highquality dvdr that lasts
with high resolution printing with my Epson r200 printer.
a great looking slip dvd cover sheet.
a fancy box that costs me $2.00 each (www.luv2pak.com)

The customer dosen't want to give their parents a burned copy of with pen writing saying our wedding day.

In addition to wedding I do have copyright events such as dance performerance in which the client wants to prevent thier customers from duplicationg them.

Further, Work For Hire cannot be assumed. By statute, unless otherwise specified, original work materials belong to the creator of the work product. If it's to be a work for hire, the client and shooter/editor MUST specify this, and usually it's in writing. Ironically, two of the "bigger" names in the wedding industry are fighting over this right now over on Videouniversity.com While the position of both is to be sympathized with, one party screwed up badly by not having a Work For Hire agreement.
Kinda like Walmart keeping your negs as djamm brings up.
There is one price for shooting the event, and another price to outright own the work product as well as the finished work.

As far as preventing people from making copies...Merely using AC3 will prevent a lot of copying, because the average person doesn't know how to do this, or isn't willing to invest the time to learn. Moreover, charging a fair fee (20.00CA surely is fair) will be cheap to anyone wanting a copy from you. You can also create a custom, nicely worded copyright message to go on the wedding video as well. While it won't prevent, it can somewhat trigger a guilt trip. People are wising up anyway. Funny side to this is that I used to get hate mail (still occasionally do) for my articles, comments, and posts about copyright issues. These days, I get at least one mail a week thanking me for the resources and information. Perhaps include a small note with the Amaray case asking people not to copy because it's your livelihood, or rather justinforming them that they can obtain additional copies at XXX address.

Note that I said my "non-commercial" customers can copy freely. Sure some prefer that I make their copies for them, and that's easy money. I just don't think that it's fair to hold family photos and videos hostage just for a few dollars profit. I would much, much prefer to get repeat business and referrals.

Commercial customers, on the other hand, are held to contract terms.

> Moreover, charging a fair fee (20.00CA surely is fair) will be cheap to anyone wanting a copy from you.

This really is at the heart of the issue. People are inherently lazy. If you charge a fair price for a copy, they would rather have you do it. If you charge $50 or $75 a copy, they will make the effort to try and copy it themselves. If you offer a quality product with nice DVD printing and a case at a reasonable price, all the more reason to just have you make the copy. People will pay a fair price. They just don’t like to be ripped off or held hostage.

~jr

I normally do copies at a couple bucks above cost (so for $5-7). I make a couple $$$ & people get their copy. Plus they are more likely to buy more that way (and come back for videos!)