copyright issues

jimingo wrote on 5/2/2005, 3:00 PM
I edit videos for a local production company (mostly weddings, performances, school plays, ect.) The company I work for doesn't care about any copywright laws and basically puts whatever song the client wants into their video. Aside from working for that company, I am starting my own production company. Right now, I do mostly corporate work but have videotaped dance performances and school plays. I want to get more involved in videotaping performances because I have connections throughout local studios and I know they would switch videographers if I offered my services. The thing I'm worried about is copyright issues. I know it's not legal to sell videos of a dance performance for example, because the music that they dance to is copyrighted. The thing is, so many production companies tape and sell these performances to the parents and nothing happens to them. In fact, my girlfriend (who works at a dance studio) got a demo video in the mail from a production company who specializes in dance performance videotaping. Their demo video used copyrighted music and I know they didn't pay any royalties for the use of it. I talked to a couple of dance studio owners about videotaping their performance and asked if it would be alright to change the music they used to royalty free music during the editing process and they didn't like that idea. So basically, the only way to get their business is to videotape the performance as is and sell the videos with the music that they want. So what I want to know is if anybody is dealing with the same situation or has delt with it. What are your comments or suggestions about videotaping performances and/or weddings with copyrighted music?

Thanks
-Jim

Comments

p@mast3rs wrote on 5/2/2005, 3:11 PM
>>>"The company I work for doesn't care about any copywright laws and basically puts whatever song the client wants into their video.">>>>

They wont be in business much longer. Good to get away from them as soon as possible. They deserved to get popped.

>>I talked to a couple of dance studio owners about videotaping their performance and asked if it would be alright to change the music they used to royalty free music during the editing process and they didn't like that idea.>>>

Ask them if they would like a copyright lawsuit instead. I bet that will really increase their bottom line, NOT.

>>>"So basically, the only way to get their business is to videotape the performance as is and sell the videos with the music that they want. So what I want to know is if anybody is dealing with the same situation or has delt with it.>>>

Breaking the law is breaking the law. Unless they can provide you with a written license and permission, there is NOTHING you can do. I would suggest when they ask you to violate the law, ask if they will cover any and all court costs and damages. Then I would inform them that using music in a video production without the proper license is ILLEGAL and punishable criminally and civilly. You may not get their business but maybe they will think twice about breaking the law. If they give you any crap, turn them in.
DavidMcKnight wrote on 5/2/2005, 3:33 PM
Do these issues come up in our work? Sure. If you want to know what the memebers of this forum do when the issue comes up, search for copyright.

Please.

The topic has been well documented, on all sides of the issue, and c'mon...no need to go into it again.
johnmeyer wrote on 5/2/2005, 3:43 PM
Do a search on "copyright" (use just the subject search or you will get more posts that you can read in a lifetime). You will find both legal advice and practical advice.

Legally, the problem you face is a mess. The problem is that for small productions, it is impossible to economically get sync rights permission (i.e., for music you add to your video). Performance rights (which the dance company hopefully got before performing) is pretty straightforward and not unreasonably priced. No excuse for them not getting that.

If you tape the performance and then sell it, some of these other posts will tell you what you have to do, where to write and how much money to send. However, if you want to add any additional music, you get into the sync rights area, and there is no solution because you will never get a major artist to negotiate rights for twenty copies you sell to the wedding party or the dance company.

So, practically speaking, my advice is to secure the rights when the artists and/or the licensing agencies (ASCAP, BMI, RIAA etc.) make it possible to do so. When they don't make it possible or economical, you can either decide to not do the project or you can decide to proceed knowing that there is a slight risk someone may complain. When you find yourself in a situation where you cannot possibly obtain copyright permission (as with sync rights), you just have to make a business decision as to what your risk is going to be.

[Edit] Spot wrote an excellent article that you might want to read:

Copyright: A Seemingly Shifting Target

TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/2/2005, 6:24 PM
ASCAP, BMI, etc only deal with things like TV & movies. They don't real with us non-CBS, non-Sony Pictures, Non-Lucas types. :( I've asked.

Basicly, you''re screwed (sorry it's so harsh). They don't want to pay you, they'll find someone else to do it or they will do it themselves. Someone will. Could be a kid down the street, a friend, someone.

That one of the really, really sucky thing about this business: we normally work for "normal" people (non-corporite types). The system isn't setup for "normal" person use. It would be completely different in another industry (say, games) because you could make things from scratch. Our job is taking something out there & making it look good on TV, and if we make it from scratch then there would be no point of us even recording.
Spot|DSE wrote on 5/2/2005, 6:41 PM
Actually, ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC don't have anything to do with sync licenses or Master Recording licenses, both of which are required for using copyrighted recordings in any video production. ASCAP, BMI, and SESAC are only involved in performance rights. The main benefit of these organizations to the video world is that they can tell you who owns the copyright to a particular recording.
BowmanDigital wrote on 5/2/2005, 7:05 PM
Does anyone here know if a recording of a midi file of a artists song is copyrighted . eg using a midi file or wav version of a midi file for public performance or promotion in a video production?
Spot|DSE wrote on 5/2/2005, 7:14 PM
yes, it's copyrighted. Even if it's a Bach song, which is public domain, the performance of the MIDI is copyrighted. However, I've yet to run across someone who wouldn't allow me to use their midi files of classical works, even after I explained what copyright means in the form of MIDI.
However, if someone sent you a MIDI of the latest MOBY song, you can enjoy it on your computer, or on a CD that you burn, but syncing it to music is a mess. Because while the performance is technically "yours" because you mixed someone else's MIDI, the copyright to the NOTES and arrangement of the song belong to MOBY. But, getting a sync license for a non-master work is quite easy, and then you only have to pay MOBY for a sync and mechanical, not sync, mechanical, and performance.
TheHappyFriar wrote on 5/2/2005, 9:07 PM
Spot, you wouldn't happen to know where I could obtain classical MIDI music that's free (royality & cost wise)?
Spot|DSE wrote on 5/2/2005, 9:25 PM
I don't. Just occasionally I'll run across a piece somewhere, and email the owner. I've also got a lady that has a grand clavinova that can record specific pieces for me. If you knew what you wanted, I could have her do it, she's not too expensive. Works out to about 20.00 a song, and usually a little less if she already knows the piece.
VOGuy wrote on 5/2/2005, 10:51 PM
Someone could make an awful lot of money if they put together a series of "wedding" musc, CDs which included rights for public performance and video distribution. Granted it would take a lot of work getting rights worked out for "We've Only Just Begun", or recording cover versions, but if you miltiply that by the number of weddings each year....

Travis
RexA wrote on 5/3/2005, 12:28 AM
>>
Someone could make an awful lot of money if they put together a series of "wedding" musc, CDs which included rights for public performance and video distribution. Granted it would take a lot of work getting rights worked out for "We've Only Just Begun", or recording cover versions, but if you miltiply that by the number of weddings each year....
<<

Correct me if I am wrong, but a version of a public domain piece of music like Bach recorded by someome and sold to you for reproducing would be fine for use in your production.

A similarly produced piece by the same producing artist of a song like "We've only just begun" would still entail all the copyright issues for that song so there is no way someone could produce the kind of product you want unless they could get the permission of all the song copyright owners to dispense in this product (the CD of songs for use in wedding videos) which is unlikely.

So that is my current level of understanding. Feel free to correct me If I got it wrong.
jimingo wrote on 5/3/2005, 1:16 AM
I talked to a dance teacher tonight, she said that her studio was allowed to use copyrighted songs because it's for educational purposes. Is there any truth in that, and if there is, I'm assuming that as soon as they hold a public performance or as soon as I tape the performance, the educational thing would have no merit anymore...right?
Bob Greaves wrote on 5/3/2005, 4:14 AM
Declaring the use as educational is a gray area. Making it a shade grayer is also the fact that you are doing a documentary. You do not script what is going on or choose the songs, you merely capture as a matter of historical record in an artistic manner.

Gray areas can be decided by a judge. I know that the school districts in my area all subscribe to that mentality as they permit students to use anything in the movie clips they produce in art class. I wish there were some fair use cases already decided that were well known that could act as a reasonable guide. At least armed with such information you could minimize consequences.

I have avoided all situations where a clear violation exists. I have done a gray thing or two but I hate doing it and avoid it almost all of the time. But I would love it if there were more wiggle room. It would certainly open me up to a whole new set of possibilities.
Jay Gladwell wrote on 5/3/2005, 4:19 AM

Friar, take a look at this. These folks are very reasonable!


johnmeyer wrote on 5/3/2005, 8:32 AM
At the risk of repeating myself, almost all the questions each of you asked are answered in Spots amazingly good article on the subject. I posted it earlier, but here it is again. HIGHLY recommended:

Copyright: A Seemingly Shifting Target

BowmanDigital wrote on 5/3/2005, 6:28 PM
MIDI files again - sorry - but if your use files created by someone like tune1000 who have licensed the copyright to sequence a popular song, does the performer who has purchased the midi files have the right to use it live or even in a recorded format for distribution? i know i probably can go to an authority for this, but its just something i've always been curious about and maybe others here on the forum are too...