Creative advice needed....

Kered5 wrote on 5/22/2003, 2:04 PM

Ok guys...I am producing a soccer (but could be any sport!) documentary in Vegas 4. I have 2 video streams...one of the actual game...the other of the crowd watching the game. I have the 2 streams synchronized so I can easily switch between the 2 camera angles so to speak (Game/Crowd).
My question is this...how do you think I can best mix the action on the field with the crowd reactions? I was thinking maybe a picture-in-picture thing with the crowd as the inset image but I think it may be a bit tedious for a whole production. I was then thinking about cutting between the 2 cameras but then you see action and then the reaction to the action later which kida loses some of the dramatic effect.

Any ideas....!?

Comments

BrianStanding wrote on 5/22/2003, 2:30 PM

I'd nix the PIP idea -- probably not enough going on in the crowd shots to warrant simultaneous coverage.

Think of your action footage as your primary footage, and the crowd shots as cutaways. Keep the camera mostly on the primary (action) footage, and use the cutaways for the following:

- To cover cuts you've made in the action footage (I'm sure ALL 90 minutes of the soccer game isn't equally fascinating!)

- To cover ugly zooms, jiggly pans and other less-than-perfect camera work

- After major events on the field (goals, great plays, fouls, red cards, etc) to get an audience reaction (cheers, boos, temper tantrums, etc.) to build drama.

If I were you, I wouldn't worry too much about synchronization. Unless your crowd shots have portions of the game going on somewhere in the frame, you should be able to put these cutaways in as you see fit without any continuity problems. In other words, feel free to use a crowd shot from the 1st quarter of the game against action from the 3rd quarter, if you feel it works better. Obviously, if the coach has ripped off his shirt and poured water over himself in the second half, you'll need to be aware of continuity. Otherwise, it shouldn't be a problem.

I'd make a media bin called "cutaways" and set markers to pick out the most interesting crowd shots. Then use these to cover your action sequence as described above.

As any documentary filmmaker knows, you can NEVER have too many cutaways. They're what make seamless editing possible.

Acts7 wrote on 5/22/2003, 2:31 PM

Best advice watch 15 minutes of your favorite sport. (If you have one)
Could even be american idol or some other live audience captured show.
How do they do it.
There in lies your answer.
BEcause your interpretation of this is what inevitably with be the best for you.
I could give you my advice but then you may not be happy with it.

But if you're just dying to know someone's opinion, I would nix the P-I-P
You risk a larger render time. Do a simple crossfade at non-dramtic points in the game.
But also keep in mind your people came to see a game not see themselves on tv (well, for the most part) that is where you eyes should remain dominantly.

**Unless you're a tv company and have your dominace on ads** Ha Haa

Enjoy

-=Acts7

Kered5 wrote on 5/22/2003, 5:56 PM

Thanks for the inputs guys...just one thing...the documentary is actually about the fans watching the game and their reactions...expressions...anxieties...tensions. The action is almost secondary!

rextilleon wrote on 5/22/2003, 6:01 PM

Stay on the fans---no shots of the soccer match---use sound and fan reactions---keep it short----that would make for an interesting video.

Kered5 wrote on 5/22/2003, 6:07 PM

rextilleon...Wow...that is a radical suggestion! Very interesting!!!
I am capturing the fan tapes right now and the reactions are captivating!!! But...don't I need to put a bit of action in to establilsh the cause of the reactions? How would it work without that?

Toxic9000 wrote on 5/22/2003, 6:32 PM

you might think of using a modification of picture in picture....split the frame and have 2 half frames going at once.....separated by a little black for effect....(like in the show 24)
i just used this in a few project and it really adds something different...but dont' do it for very long....anything for too long is a bad idea....download 24 if you haven't seen it (kazaa)
jer

BrianStanding wrote on 5/23/2003, 1:56 PM

O.K., if the focus is on the fans, I agree with rextilleon: try to not use any action footage. I think if you're creative, you could establish the soccer game just through audio alone. THAT would be cool! You'll probably have to keep the whole thing fairly short -- say, 10 minutes or less.

The nice thing is, since you'll be jumping to different faces in the crowd, you don't need to worry about cutaways to cover your cuts.

If you find you don't have the right audio, maybe you could go record some "wild" sound of another soccer game to get the sounds you need to establish in the audience's mind that there's a soccer game going on. If worst came to worst, you could probably get some people together to fake it.

If that doesn't work, or if you feel showing NO action shots is too extreme, then I'd simply reverse everything I said in my original post: make the crowd shots your primary and the action shots your cutaways. Maybe just a couple of action shots at the beginning and the end to establish the scene, with everything else just the crowd shots.

I'd love to see the finished product.

vicmilt wrote on 5/23/2003, 2:21 PM

definitely feature the fans - that's your concept after all -
I'd play with the footage - slow motion of excited cheering immediately comes to mind -

I'd start with a highly rythmic track (of your choosing - or create one in Acid) and cut images directly on or off the beat - this is not a "rule" though, just a point of departure..

but if it was me editing, I'd start out with a beautiful classical music piece, and then slow down the whole thing and cut to that. It's so unexpected to see action against classical, and the slow down (which Vegas does so deliciously) would be great. I'd also play with varieated speeds, that is, changing the speed within the cut -
play with it - don't prethink it at all - let the footage tell you where to go - if that means nothing to you - then it just means play, Play, PLAY -
this is supposed to be fun, after all...
:)
v

Kered5 wrote on 5/23/2003, 2:42 PM

Guys...

Thanks for the advice...I have chills running down my spine thinking about this project now!!! You are right vicmilt...it is fun!!! And...I know it;s been said before...but that is one of THE great strengths of Vegas...EASE OF USE!!!! I can just have fun intuitively and not worry about the "how to"s!

Of course I would never use this piece because of copyright (:-) but I have a mental image of the anguish on the face of one of the fans in slow motion as the final whistle blows (a 3-2 defeat with the winner in the last minute!!!) to the sounds of Adagio for Strings (Samuel Barber)! Remember it was used in the movie Platoon?!

vicmilt wrote on 5/23/2003, 9:02 PM

try it out - it sounds great
v.

let us know how your project is proceeding

kameronj wrote on 5/23/2003, 10:01 PM

I didn't read the last few posts - so if I say what has aleady been said just blow past me.

I think the idea of just editing the crowd reaction and not showing any of the game is great. I would take that and run with it.

Of course, you would have the audio of the game....he shoots...he scores....that type of stuff. But, if you had enough footage or could edit the crowds movements to match some (if not all) of the audio as the crowd IS the match....that would be cool too.

I like the split screen "24" feel too.

I wouldn't make it too static - that is, change the box size and placement and stuff - could turn out really well.