Decklink: this is what I've waited for?

norgeworks wrote on 4/19/2005, 8:37 PM
Listen, I know you guys have been working hard, but the state of Decklink integration (once you dig for the details) is a little worrisome.

NOT consistently frame accurate
NO way to choose which channels to lay back to
NO assemble edit
NO 10bit capture (this one is understandable)
and ONLY ONE codec to capture to!

The jury is out on real-time effects--no one's talking!

And that's with A YEAR'S worth of development time? Please tell me you expect things to progress faster than this!

I know I sound bitter, but I'd really gotten my hope's up (not your fault) over a year ago when I heard about this combination. I've been trying to break free of Avid's grasp, but there have been things about Vegas that just prevent me from jumping ship. If Avid can let me control a Beta deck through my serial port--why can't Vegas? I thought Decklink would be the answer (and cheapest uncompressed option), but low and behold it comes with a list of qualifiers.

Add this to the silence on the AAF issue (OK, I need to calm down, it's only been a day) and my enthusiasm to upgrade is turning into feelings of exasperation and depression. Am I alone in this?

Sony? I guess what I'm asking is: when do you plan to have Decklink *truely* functional?

Comments

norgeworks wrote on 4/20/2005, 6:42 AM
No one seems to be commenting on the Decklink / AAF issues, so I'm bumping this in the hopes it's seen by Sony staff...
B_JM wrote on 4/20/2005, 7:19 AM
SONY is using version 1.0.2.0 of the AAF Advanced Authoring Format API (AAFCOAPI.dll)

a new major version was just released 1.1.0 april 14, 2005

A few bugs are listed in version 1.0.2.0 also in the bug tracker ...

perhaps - those that can try it -- use the new build....

backup you old dll(s) and download the new version and put it in same locations in your install ...

consider this a test only and not production value ..

new build of AAF is here:

http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=24405&package_id=35142
bStro wrote on 4/20/2005, 7:21 AM
From the front page of this forum:

The Sony Media Software discussion forum is a peer support area where you can share tips and advice with other Sony Media Software product users. We monitor these boards periodically. However, if you require immediate technical support, please choose from the options on our Support Home Page. By registering and posting on this forum, you acknowledge that your use of this site is subject to the Web site's Terms & Conditions and Privacy Policy.

Rob
norgeworks wrote on 4/20/2005, 7:56 AM
So I'm to open a case with technical support concerning:

"NOT consistently frame accurate
NO way to choose which channels to lay back to
NO assemble edit
NO 10bit capture (this one is understandable)
and ONLY ONE codec to capture to!

The jury is out on real-time effects--no one's talking!"

Is this really the intended route for inquiries such as this? To field them through technical support? If so, I'll do that tonight...
busterkeaton wrote on 4/20/2005, 9:06 AM
What real time effects are you talking about?

Decklink doesn't do that.
norgeworks wrote on 4/20/2005, 9:38 AM
On the mac:

These include Cross Dissolve, Non Additive Dissolve, Additive Dissolve, Fade in Fade out, Dip to Color, Sepia, Desaturate, Brightness Contrast, Proc Amp, Tint, and Gamma Correction and 3 way color correction on both 8 bit and 10 bit uncompressed modes.

http://www.postop.com/detail.aspx?ID=6

An in Premiere you get (at least): Cross dissolve, Additive dissolve and Dip-to-Black dissolve as far as realtime transitions.

And you also get a bunch more on Premiere. I won't bother pasting the whole thing:

http://www.promax.com/Support/decklink4.8.html

Was our nomenclature clashing? Should I have said 'transitions'? It looks to me like it supports them...
busterkeaton wrote on 4/20/2005, 10:01 AM
I assumed you were talking about hardware accelerated effects. Not passing through certain effects. I guess the best way to describe it is "Decklink can keep up with certain effects/transition as long your computer is capable of generating them in real time."

In Premiere Pro you can pass through some transitions when working with a single layer of matched media provided your cpu and disk are fast enough.



Here's the limitations from the Promax page.

NOTE: In Adobe Premiere Pro, to achieve realtime transitions; use clips with identical dimensions, identical framerates and identical pixel formats from the following: 8 bit YUV, 10 bit YUV and 8 bit RGB with alpha channel. For example: 8 bit YUV PAL clips, 8 bit RGB NTSC clips, 10 bit HD clips. Realtime transitions are only possible when applied to a single layer. Mixing of frame dimensions, framerates or pixel formats or using multiple layers will require rendering. In the event that you are unable to achieve realtime playback through a transition, possibly due to slow disk access speed or insufficient processing power you can disable SD and/or HD transitions through Project > Project Settings > General > Playback Settings.
norgeworks wrote on 4/20/2005, 10:35 AM
Yah, I saw the limitations posted there--that's all fine and dandy for me. I don't mix frame sizes too often--or codecs for that matter. Even just having dissolves play through on 1 video track would be nice for now--cc etc can come later...

What I *would* like is a page like the promax one devoted to what *vegas* offers with decklink. Why does it seem like a big secret as to what it can and can't do?

I am sooo jazzed for decklink support--but it's got to work!
SonyPJM wrote on 4/20/2005, 11:05 AM
Vegas does not use Decklink's real time effects.
busterkeaton wrote on 4/20/2005, 11:48 AM
I stand corrected.
norgeworks wrote on 4/20/2005, 12:13 PM
SonyPJM: thanks for clearing this up--though it's not what I wanted to hear.

Can you comment on the initial question posed in this thread?

"when do you plan to have Decklink *truely* functional?"

...why do I have a sinking feeling it will be v7.0...
SonyPJM wrote on 4/20/2005, 1:29 PM

I can't comment on dates but it would be helpful to know your (and
other users') prioritized list of fixes and enhancements. Also, what
do you consider to be the cutoff point for "true" functionality...
what can't you live without?
norgeworks wrote on 4/20/2005, 2:02 PM
Rock solid frame accurate Time Code would be my #1. No drift is acceptable. That's simply *expected*, to be honest. Without that, the card's useless to me.

The ability to capture to a codec of my choosing would be a huge asset (huff, etc). As would realtime color correction. Choosing which channel to lay back to is high--hell, they're all high to tell the truth, or I wouldn't be bringing them up! ;) I guess if I had to prioritize:

1. rock solid frame accurate time code - dig and PTT
2. capture to codec of my choice
3. realtime cc
4. assemble edit, and choice of channels during insert edit

That's my list as of now. Nothing the card can't do already--some things that Premiere *already* does. Without #1 the card is useless. Without #2 it would be a PITA and I probably wouldn't bother purchasing it. #3 would make me RAVE about it. If you got all the way to #4 I'd say the card is truely functional. Actually, you wouldn't need #3 to claim full functionality.

Interested to see other's priorities in this regard...
vicmilt wrote on 4/20/2005, 11:36 PM
1 - Accurate insert video editing on the tape output - this to make tiny fixes in an hour video without having to rerender and/or reprint the entire hour.
SonyPJM wrote on 4/21/2005, 7:11 AM
Accurate insert editing for print to tape does work now... you may need to adjust the "Record engage delay" setting in the Decklink print device properties at first but once you get it dialed in you shouldn't need to fuss with it again.

Also, capture is frame accurate MOST of the time... but occasionally it is off by a frame or two.
norgeworks wrote on 4/21/2005, 10:13 AM
"Accurate insert editing for print to tape does work now"

That's 100% accurate?

"Also, capture is frame accurate MOST of the time... but occasionally it is off by a frame or two"

So you would end up with a +/- 2 frame offset on occassion? That's scary as hell. I'd *almost* rather hear there is a consistant offset--at least you could ripple your edits to account for it...

I'm not about to capture an hours worth of footage only to discover the inpoint was 2 frames out and everything is off-code. Imagine editing your project--rediging it later and then when it grabs each shot *some* of them will be out, while others will be in. What a nightmare!

100% frame accuracy is the absolute #1. "MOST of the time" might as well be never...

I realize it was probably a bit of slog to get it this far--and having the PTT function working 100% is to be commended (if that is indeed the case). While normally I'd be very happy with something working most of the time, frame accuracy is either 100% or zero in my books. It's like being "mostly alive".
BrianStanding wrote on 4/21/2005, 1:52 PM
I imagine this depends how you're working: if you're batch-capturing many individual clips, frame-accuracy is a must.

However, if you're capturing large segments of a tape onto hard disk and then cutting from there, frame-accuracy would be less critical.

Or is there something about SDI / Decklink capture that I don't understand?
norgeworks wrote on 4/21/2005, 10:00 PM
"However, if you're capturing large segments of a tape onto hard disk and then cutting from there, frame-accuracy would be less critical."

Possibly. Unless you ever had to re-digitize for some reason. Now your shots have flash frames and bits of audio you never intended to go to air.

I am asked to update our station's sales tape every 3 months. We have to pull from a huge library of footage spanning all the shows we broadcast. We pull different shots depending on which shows / programming we want to showcase. I have to batch dig from a master list all the time (not enough space to just keep them on the drives). I batch dig every day in fact (promo editing etc).

I can see that if you're just doing one-offs you'll never return to TC slip might not be an issue (and maybe that's what you were getting at). In my case I batch dig all the time so to me it's essential. =)
B_JM wrote on 4/22/2005, 7:40 AM
I require frame accuracy for material prepared for theme parks (rides - effect syncro) and also 3d applications and museum/interactive type material that requires frame look up random seek..

Still also am producing material for Laser Disk (yes - true) and dvds that have to have EXACT frame and I frame placemnt across multiple disks and shows - as well as carry control timecode signals to sync to external audio playback and show controlers ..

rmack350 wrote on 4/25/2005, 9:50 AM
I'm curious. Do the tools provided by BlackMagic allow for frame accurate capture and PTT?

I guess the question is whether the hardware can do it?

Second would be, does the state of Vegas integration totally stop you, or is it possible to capture and print from outside of Vegas?

I know these are basic questions but I don't have a decklink card and want to understand the core issues. Like, when you redigitize can the newly acquired media have extra heads and tails or must it be captured right on the frame. If it can have heads and tails, but is not frame accurate, is there an issue where individual frames may not get the same frame numbers?

Rob Mack
busterkeaton wrote on 4/25/2005, 3:57 PM
B_JM,

What do you use for output?
B_JM wrote on 4/25/2005, 4:07 PM
many different formats - depends on the venue and customer requirements .. much of the dvd stuff is for marketing and sales use ..

QuVis
D-Beta
DVD
laser disk (goes to beta sp or d-beta first)
Various HD MPEG2 servers
custom 2D and 3D formats and hardware/software/codecs
To be filmed out
Mpeg servers
QT and other video and/or audio servers and hardware bite devices .
other d-cinema systems
etc etc etc