>>DV has been on prime time for YEARS <<

... I'm talking about getting there.....I'm talking about RGB, RGB2, YUV, YU2U (whatever) I'm talking about primary and secondary colour wheels ... gimme a break ... what madness drove the equipment makers to dump this horror show on us....?

what madness drove the equipment makers to dump this horror show on us....?

If you believe the manufacturers, they're only responding to consumer demand. You know, the people who'll be screaming "Help!! How do I do this now???"

Mike

>> responding to consumer demand <<

... sure, I can hear 'em now .... "sir, I'm lookin' fer a camera, a computer, an encoder, a NLE and a monitor all with their own colour space so
I can spend weeks correctin' colour and tweakin' the channels..." .

where did this guy come from? Is he related to zippy?

hahahaha...heeeheeheee...hohoho....
Musta taken something that disagreed with 'im.

>> where did this guy come from? <<

... I'm amazed that you find correcting colour for final output is a normal and necessary part of editing ... I do not ... we all have eyes ... a vast majority of us see the same thing ... why is the recording, editing, encoding and viewing equipment messing around with colour spaces and forcing us to make adjustments...? ... until this is solved, we're still barbarians with video equipment...

In defense of Zippy (yes, me defending Zippy) he's been quite a model gentleman lately on the DMN.

Clipman...color correcting DOESN"T have to be part of every session, if you light right, if you know apertures, shutters, etc, this isn't a problem. Yes, there are a lot of color spaces, but they're not THAT relevant to the whole process. The camera is YUV, the editor is *usually* RGB, 8 bit. that is going to change one day, but that's where it is for now. Is there a big deal about converting YUV to RGB? Not really. There are some colors that don't map perfectly, but they are more fringe colors than meat n' potato colors.

>> but that's where it is for now <<

... that's what I'm saying .... I understand that electronic equipment doesn't "see" colour like humans do and must "fake" it ... all I'm saying is why can't the equipment from all manufactures fake it in a standard way across the whole food chain...? .... count the number of posts on this board about colour correction ... sometimes it's as high as 30% of all topics .... it appears it's more relevant than you imagine... I agree with what your saying but until the colour space issue is resolved, editing digital video has not reached prime time ...

Obviously a man who's never worked with film!
Seriously though it's a bit like someone who buys a HiFi with a graphic eq in it, man if all those knobs confuse you, you don't have to twidle them you know.

Perhaps I could suggest you start editing with Windows Movie Maker, nothing in it's that likely to cause such major confusion or you could do some research and learn a bit about this craft. Plenty of good texts on color correction to be had at a reasonable price that are pretty easy to understand or perhaps you could consider shooting in B&W, that should do it.
But whatever you do, don't even think about doing audio stuff, wow heaps there to really fry the brain.
But here's a final simple solution, just tell everyone it was shot in NTSC. Sorry, couldn't resist :)

Bob.

>> and learn a bit about this craft <<

...been producing, directing and editing for a long time ... I KNOW how to correct colour ... I KNOW the incredible number of tweaks required for output and where the settings all are on the hundreds of pieces of hardware and software required to get a decent clip out the door .... what I'm ranting about is the NEED to do all this ... there shouldn't be a NEED to colour correct regardless of lighting, shutter speed or any other conditions unless you intentionally want a purple cast on the talent for creative puposes...

there shouldn't be a NEED to colour correct regardless of...

Exactly!! If the footage is shot properly in the first place, colour correction isn't required.
Speaking for myself, I never go on a shoot without a colour field monitor that I calibrate before the shoot begins and reference constantly. I alsowhite balance every time I change locations, camera angles, etc. It only takes a moment and I'm assured of accurate colour.
Unfortunately, far too may users either think the camera can magically do it all for them or they want the control but the manufacturer doesn't let them.

Mike

>> a colour field monitor that I calibrate before the shoot<<

... that's the fundamental problem we have with all this equipment and the basis for my rant... the need to calibrate ... there should be no reason to this either .... from what I've read, they use algorithms to define what the lens is seeing and then translate it into a colour space... the problem is each manufacturer use different algorithms and different colour spaces .... I know the lens and build quality of the cameras also affect colour but standardized algorithms should be the first step ... if we don't whine and complain about this then we're gonna be saddled with this bullsh!t for years to come ....

Well, in a way you're right. It isn't a part of editing. Traditionally (Ever since there was color film) this sort of work was done by someone other than the editor. Maybe you'd work with a colorist at the printer, maybe you'd hire an experienced person to do it digitally (there's a great piece on the topic in the first lord of the rings box.)

These people were very skilled, very experienced, and worth a lot of money (when the product is worth a lot of money you can afford this).

But even before you send stuff out to a good colorist you need to get good shots to begin with. Most successful film shooters do a lot of tests before they start. They try out film stocks under certain lighting setups and they compare the results. The DPs I've worked with have been quite scholarly. Occasionally I've worked with video shooters who are the same way and they're always impressive people.

In our world-really, really low budget video-shooters don't always have a lot of skill or experience. Color balances aren't set, light types get mixed, people are too distracted by issues other than the image and just don't watch a good monitor, and of course the cameras just aren't very adjustable. So we end up with a mix of footage, some of which is marginal, and it needs tweeking. Given that our budgets are really low we want to adjust color ourselves and we often find that it's harder than we thought.

My advice to you is to get the shots right in the first place. Take a good field monitor, a good field engineer, a paintable camera, and a paintbox. Even then you may find yourself fiddling with color adjustments in post.

There are a lot of color tools in Vegas. The primary and secondary color correctors are probably the deepest of them. Try some of the easier tools if that's what you need.

Rob Mack

Excellent reply Rob. Too few people these days seem to be willing to take the extra time to "get it right" the first time.
I'm getting tired of hearing "we'll fix it in post". Yes, you probably can - but at what cost in money/time? Had you taken the time to get it right in the field, you wouldn't be spending extra time trying to fix all your mistakes.
I had some excellent teachers when I first started in video and I'm still learning 30 years later :-)

Mike

"...been producing, directing and editing for a long time"

None of these involve getting a good camera setup in the first place. Nor do they involve lighting a shot.

I won't argue against easy options. Any time a tool or process could be made easier and better that's great! But it seems like your argument is like saying that driving is hard, why can't it all be like riding the subway.

It's good to be loud about this sort of thing, even if people think you're a crackpot. Sometimes developers and engineers have other priorities and need to be reminded of things. And sometimes they're so buried in the tasks at hand that they don't see your issue as being an issue at all. However, just as there are several "DV" formats, there are of necessity several color models and you're never going to get them all to line up. Never ever will you see 16bit color in a consumer format, for instance.

I just don't think that anyone sees 8bitYUV / 8bit RGB conversions as a show stopper. Maybe an inelegant detail, maybe a conceptual inconvenience, certainly something worth rectifying eventually. But not anything like an insurmountable barrier.

Rob Mack

>>get the shots right in the first place<<

... OK, let's take a product shot for a client .... controlled studio environment .... perfect lighting, white balance, speed etc ... take the shot, still or motion .... here's what you get... "it's not my corporate red..." ... take the same shot under the same conditions with another camera and you get another "red" .... let me put this simply ... any camera under any conditions should give you the exact same red... period .... don't say it's impossible to achieve... there are simply too many proprietary algorithms out there that are causing this colour shift and driving editors out of their minds (me, anyway)....I suppose many here and in the industry can live with this nonsense but I won't hesitate in yelling at the equipment makers for this needless waste of time, talent and money....colour shifts can be solved through hardware and software to a point where NO CORRECTION need be done pre or post production....

My own experience in lighting over the last 15 years has been that you try to do the best you can now so that there's as little as possible to fix later. And of what's left to be fixed or adjusted, at least make it possible to adjust it. You can't do much if the shot is blown out.

I don't think we're talking about massive, drastic fixes here. But if you're a producer/director/editor and have been mistaking your stopwatch for a light meter then frustrations with color correction can be an issue. The solutions for that person seem to me to be to either pick an easier tool and limit the scope of what you're doing or to hire someone to do this sort of finishing work. Someone who isn't stressed out and in a panic.

Rob Mack

...it's not my corporate red...

And it never will be. The agency person is looking at a Pantone (CMYK) swatch book and your'e looking at a scope (RGB). To paraphrase an old line, never the two shall meet. You can get close but that's about it.

Mike

These new-fangled aeroplanes and autogyros cannot compete with the unrivaled choice for gentlemanly air travel, Count Von Zepplin's marvelous dirigible.

>>pick an easier tool <<

... I seem to have failed to get my message across.... simply put, the "tools" are flawed .... I mean in terms of NOT delivering a consistent colour profile across all hardware and software .....personally, I see no glory in immersing myself in calibration and colour correction for umpteen years and bragging about it like it was some great achievement .... not everyone revels in colour adjustments ....

I feel the same about putting air in my tires and gas in the tank. Everytime I run the tank dry in the middle of nowhere I shake my little fists at heaven "Why are you so stoopid!".

Then I lay into the car for being such a piece of sh!t.

Rob Mack

I mean in terms of NOT delivering a consistent colour profile across all hardware and software

If there was only one brand & model of camera, monitor, dvd player, VHS player, TV set, etc., then it "might" be possible to maintain consistency. Otherwise, not a snowball's chance in hell. There are just too many variables at every step in the process.

Mike