i should also note that the centre channel is not actually "heard" from the centre channel, its only heard from the FL and FR speakers.. even though the mixer shows the actual signal is on the centre..

well now that ive formated this thing i may as well go and buy that Xfi ive always wanted..

Is as thogh the routing from Vegas to the sound device is non existant...
ANYONE have any clues on this??
I woudl have thought that running an onboard sound card from a mobo would be very much like any other 5.1 soundcard.. this ones actually 7.1 but i dont need that..

ANYONE have a clue as to why vegas isnt outputting its mix accordingly?

The soundcard setup is fine, believe me, ive been doing this for years and this is the first instance ive ever had issues with Audio...

Wow.. ok this is realy starting to annoy me now...

the centre channel when using the MS wave driver, sends to the left front channel
LFE is dead...

both signals are viewable however..
Now when i tweak the centre volume channel in vegas, t adjuts the gain as it shoud but this signal is still being sent to FL FR chanels
the LFE is where is should as are the rears..

its on ly the fact that the centre channel isnt routed to the centre speaker for some odd reason..

ive checked all connections, all settings, all speaker configes with within the audio device and Vegas mixer panel, but still, no cigar..

another thing i should note, is that when using the SBLive i had it all set through ASIO drivers.
The entire system was manually configured and i had absolutely no problems...

so everyone here has never had an issue with surround mixing with onboard sound?

I haven't tried any 5.1 with onboard sound since I junked the creative stuff. Hope springs eternal that it will work OK.
I have the Realteck HD driver and the LFE doesn't show on playback unless I double click the surround sound menu and click LFE then the LFE will show by itself.
JJK

I do almost every project in 4-channel surround (LF, RF, LR, RR). My system is XPpro running with an inboard TurtleBeach Santa Cruz card, which works great.

One thing I've noticed from my earliest experiments: Setting the Audio driver to DirectSound makes my timeline cursor "jumpy" and sometimes out-of-sync with the sound. So for regular editing, I use the MS Sound Mapper. But if I then switch the audio to surround sound, all the channels come out of just the front two speakers, so for the final surround balancing I need to switch back to DirectSound, and then the audio is routed properly. I've never dug deeper to see why Vegas behaves this way, but I've learned to adapt and have done many projects successfully this way (force of habit, I guess).

I've never used the center channel, because I've never seen the need to localize dialog for the kinds of projects I do (I think Dolby says the center channel was necessary in a theater with a 50-foot-wide screen to make sure dialog stayed in the center, no matter where one sat). Likewise for the LFE channel, which I think was a huge mistake for Dolby because it (a) wasn't necessary and (b) just made mixing and mixdowns more complicated. Again, I think the original Dolby spec was to have audio delivered through the regular full-spectrum channels, with the vestigial LFE channel just thrown in for extra "oomph" in explosions and the like. So I've never played with LFE--sorry.

What makes life more complicated is that speaker vendors usually call a 2-channel setup with separate woofer a "2.1" system, which has nothing to do with the Dolby ".1" designation at all.

Anyway, I'll climb down off my soapbox now and hopefully someone else can help with your specific issue.

OK, well i took a break from it and spent some quality time with the kids...

then i lieterally just went back to it to check it out before calling it a night...

well now, dont i have egg on my face...

sure enough Vegas was doign th rith thing..
my mixer was set correctly TO A POINT
My windows mixer was set correctly and all that jazz..

I went into the realtik buzzing bee test thingy and floated that bee and tried to see if the mixer allowed for an actual individual speaker test.
I could never find it, so i played with that bee to check out placement and lo and behold, nada nothing..

I then went into the Audio I/o screen which shows you which analogue outs are in use and which chanels are configured for whicever speaker..

then i noticed the lil graphic on the left of this and a barely noticable drop down box above the graphic
(Much like DVDA's media info, where if you DIDNT click on it, you wouldnt know that you could replace the media)
Anyways to cut a long story short, it certainly DOES allow for the 5.1 output properly..

thing is not only do u need to allocate it from windows mixer, but u also have to pretty much double handle it through THIS mixer also.
Lucky for me Vegas dont give a toss and whatever is in the mixer per se is what is rendered out, regardless of the HW setup..

strange that i had totally forgoten about this config setting as this is only a recent install of XP and it was only 3 weeks ago where i jumped form creative to teh onboard sound.

to be honest, the 1400 registry entires and teh fct that even after uninstalling, it wouldnt let me install anythign newer, made me wonder WTF creative have done with their Audigy...

I was actually about to go out and buy an XFi...

OK to get back to some responses here..

the realtek audio driver didnt "tell" me how to set it up
It also didnt have a 'speaker test" which was obvious.
in fact if i didnt "seek" it i prolly woudnt have found it..

As for surround mixing.
I ALWAYS use the centre channel for dialogue.
at least 98% of my work is 5.1 and allowing me the power to isolate dialogue from ambient and musical backgrounds differentiats my work (weddings) to most others.
Theres alot mroe to it than chanel seperation, however with stereo mixdown, i also calbrate a decent DD PLII mixdown as well as an EX tag for those with beefier systems.

In fact most weddings ive seen sound like crud compared to my work, and its not just the codec or teh quality of mic.
The mix, is prolly 50% of what the clients hear and having the ability to tweak each channel respectively, and route certain channels through bus tracks allows one to create an environment which is rarely seen for this product.

in regar to LFE, one thign abut the SB cards, si that they DID allow for bass redirection. In turn, speaker strain was less of an issue as th efreq below 120hz (what i had it set to) would be sent to the Sub as oppposed to the FL FR speakers.
This allowed for a louder and clearer output see, as the mains werent pushing the cones that much (bass being filtered to the sub see)

Now during a mix, allowing th euse of an LFE allows one to create a decent mix of teh music in question. As in rears can be bussed to an effect, without affecting the FL FR, The LFE, can have a different compression configuration, so the compression threshold of your main audio, is different to yoru sub, so you can tweak it for a punchier bass... the centre channel can be tweaked in a variety of ways...

I honestly dont think Dolby Labs had made amistake with any of this.
Discrete channel seperation makes a huge difference to quiet dialogue, And LFE can make a huge impact when your work is driven by the soundtrack and the way vgas works with audio, i can certainly see why people are movng away from pro tools and coming here. OT be honest, many of those still suign pro tols are only using it for Autotune then finalsing their mixes in Vegas

"One thing I've noticed from my earliest experiments: Setting the Audio driver to DirectSound makes my timeline cursor "jumpy" and sometimes out-of-sync with the sound. "
Ive never had that issue ever. My cursor is always smooth. I have had Vegas flake out when scaling 44.1 to 48khz for asio though. MP3s used to crash Vegas 6 somethign fierce..


So for regular editing, I use the MS Sound Mapper.

((Tried thois today. For surround mixing, it doesnt work. Centre is routed to left and LFE is non existant

But if I then switch the audio to surround sound, all the channels come out of just the front two speakers, so for the final surround balancing I need to switch back to DirectSound, and then the audio is routed properly.

((This is what i meant in my earlier posts. Even if it SHOWS multiple channel sperations, the driver only hanles stereo.. much like Vegas stereo mixdown of a multichannel project))

I've never dug deeper to see why Vegas behaves this way, but I've learned to adapt and have done many projects successfully this way (force of habit, I guess).

((I now do not think its vegas. I believe its the MS drivers only supporting stereo outputs ))

I've never used the center channel, because I've never seen the need to localize dialog for the kinds of projects I do (I think Dolby says the center channel was necessary in a theater with a 50-foot-wide screen to make sure dialog stayed in the center, no matter where one sat).

((I have to disagree, Channel seperation, particularly for dialogue, allows one to isolate this key portion of the work, in turn, if a voice carries a frequency which is shared by the background music or ambience (lets say a bride with a high pitched voice who wants her ceremony to have a song with a singer who also has a high pitched voice) this clash or "sharing" of frequencies ois not an issue.
Reason being is that the dialogue is louder and the music channel (for centre) is usually between 12 to 18db lower than the dialogue.
In turn, wha tthe brides voice says will not affect the musics freq, and vice versa. They may be at different gain levels, owever theyre still sharing the same frequencies and admittadly most people wouldnt pick up on this, but phasing can be heard if u know what to look for.
Umm.. check out DJSammy feat Yanou "heaven" its a cover of a brina adams song, but ths is a perfect example of bad mixing where she hits hi octaves and her voice totally clips like 8+db and washes out the backing track.

If however dialogue is shared with background music, one must isolate certain frequencies to ensure seperattion so as to stop any phasiing. between the two differenct sources which MAY share the same freq's
This is where Vegas EQ automation comes into play.
Makes a whoppign difference when u cut dialogue in a stereo mix, to not simply drop the gain, but to also tweak the EQ.
If you hiit EQ in audio FX (go there now.. go on, u know u want to.. )
run a loop with dialogue AND music..
now in ur EQ, click on the "3" this is 1000hz freq setting.
Now dro the gain by -8db, bring the bandwidth to about 3.3 octaves and have a listen to how much "punchier' your dialogue sounds.
You can even do this WIHTOUT having to drop the gain of the music itself..
Youd be surprised how clever EQing can allow one to trick the ear into thinging the audio is actually dropped when al u did was isolate those freq's and filter them out of th emix during speach..

Ive heard so many stereo mixes that make me laugh, it isnt funny.
IMO most videographers need at least 2 days of workshopping in understanding audio, how the human percieves it, how any particular sound system will respond to what your giving it, and most importantly how rich can we make it without busting our balls..

Once dialogue phases with music, not only can you hear it, but it also has the tendency to push output levels above whats acceptable.

This EQ trick should help in geting better dialogue within a stereo project. obviouly youd tweak it to your needs.
I shoud note that 5.1 project doesnt need this kind of constant EQ tweaking))

Likewise for the LFE channel, which I think was a huge mistake for Dolby because it (a) wasn't necessary and (b) just made mixing and mixdowns more complicated.

(Well its not complicated. There is a 4 click method of having a perfectly viable LFE track without having to even think about the output.

In fact ts so easy its scary.

As for LFE speration, like i mentioned earlier, the SBLive cards allow for bass redirection. On can actually do the same thing manualy with Vegas.
The thing abotu LFE, is that aside from wow factor, having this addition output for a set range of Feqs allows one more control within any particular environment. I might make a mix on my Berrhinger truths, and test them out on my Yam studio monitors, i might be abl eot get all Freq's as loud as possible and make it sound good..
but then, i might throw that mix on a TV.
Whammo, your gone. The mix sucks dogs balls becuasethe speakers cant handle the SPL thats being fed into them.
Same with headphones and the like.
Theres alot to be said for DD mixdown metadata ideas as well as compatibility.
By isolating ceratin channels allows mroe control. Be it from teh creator or the user.
LFE to my eye IS essentail for a decent surround mix.
Mixdown metadata however, (PLII tags) are JSUT as important though. ))

Again, I think the original Dolby spec was to have audio delivered through the regular full-spectrum channels,

((Channels or frequencies? theyre very different.... ))

with the vestigial LFE channel just thrown in for extra "oomph" in explosions and the like. So I've never played with LFE--sorry.

((Tis ok, it might be somethign to consider in teh future. Its more than jsut oomph. It allos u to route entire frequencies to a dedicated putput device which can handle those freq's, which n most other cases, could kill a mix.
Take an action flick.
add some hard hiting techno..
so youve got dialogue, doof doof of the tr909, cars screaching and engines revvin, crashes and jumps.
Now, imagine if you ran ALL that across 2 channels.
Do you think it would be possible? Of course it would.. however how much mixing and tweaking woudl be needed to ensure that the dialogue is heard, and ever bump, scratch, hihat and kikdrum are also heard through this.. ?

Now imagine the same scenario. Dialogue in centre channel.
Effects through a 5.0 placement and mix, with the EQ trick mentined above ONLY for the effects on teh centre channel.
Now filter all freqs with a cut off of 120hz and have that routed to the LFE channel.
Now play the 2 side by side.. which do you think will offer a clearer, potentially louder mix, with a full range of unphased frequencies?

See where im getting at? ))

What makes life more complicated is that speaker vendors usually call a 2-channel setup with separate woofer a "2.1" system, which has nothing to do with the Dolby ".1" designation at all.

((No, but it has to do with the LFE designation. Some speakers, (most satelite and PC systems) main full range speakers cant handle high volumes. In turn, by adding an LFE channel, allows one to filter low end freq's to allow a higher volume output from the mains (as theyre not strainging at every kick of the drum see)
Most full range speakers cabs have a ful range cone and a tweater, some PC and smaller sat systems odnt have this.

To offer an LFE, depsite it being for DD use, is a smart thing to do.
My hometheatre system has 2 LFE subs, AND 450 full range main speakers.
I however run all freqs around 120hz to the LFE, and by doing this, i put less strain on my full range, which means they can be pumped louder, with no distortion, as the speakers tehmselves arent outputting the full range theyre designed to.
The subs take care of the bass.
Its the smart way to keep your sound system loud clear and with minimal distortion at high volumes.

I guess its up tot he individual but i believe suround mixing is somethin many more people shoudl consider if their poduct is being played on a variety of differnt devices.

'450 full range main speakers.'
How could you ever turn that up loud enough to distort?

"I was actually about to go out and buy an XFi... "

I actually have the x-fi elite pro (bought it in spite of warnings not to) and I just love it. It's clean, clear, works well with Vegas and the external box that comes with it for volume control and connection isn't one of these dinky little things where all the connection are too close together. It's about the size of a small dvd player and allows lots of room for cable connections and such.

I do nothing but 5.1 surround audio and use strictly the asio2 drivers and the whole thing works great.

blink, well thats the thing, i had the Audigy 2 and before that the ORIGINAL SBlive (yup, the 4.0 card with the digital daughter board and mini midi ports... ) and since then, ive never had an issue wth creatiev, but when i tripped and yanked the firewire card out of the PCI slip (open case, everythign connected and runnign tests) it took out the SBLive with it..

Once i realised it was the soundcard, i replaced it with an OEM Audigy 2 however the drivers were obviously different so i tried to reinstall them.
This was where the problem was because even though i went through the motions of unintsalling, it STILL wouldnt let me install the new drivers for teh replacemetn card.
After unintsalling again, i tried the XFi... heres me thinking Xfi isnt refering soundblaster at all, but o and behold, the same problem arose.

I never had issues with ASIO and with my audio post prod and all my synths and samplers, it came in handy.

anywyas, to cut a long story short, without formatting, i tried to uninstall anythign and everythign creative.
I did a ful backup and ran a registry cleaner
Reg mechanic i think it was.
it took all creative eleemnts out.. all 1400 of them..
rebooted and whammo, system dead in the water.
salvaged waht i could, ran the internal sound drivers and all was well, vegas however kept flaking that ASIO wasnt installed etc etc
slowly the system conitnued to deteriorate, so i decided on doign a full format and reinstall.

worked a treat and nowusing the realtek drivera

Having onboard HW sound like this unit is ok, becuae it doesnt eat up CPU cycles,, if however it was standard sound card (lke the V2 release of the mobo i have) then its a different story.
The SBlives i found would be good for gameing and the like, and seperation was ALWAYS nice and clean with a bass redirection if u wanted it.

I never realised how much crap is installed with the creative drivers though.. lol

"I never realised how much crap is installed with the creative drivers though.. lol "

Yes... without a doubt! And a lot of it is total rubbish that's not really needed. I look at my running processes right now and quite a few of them have to do with creative. (Granted I'm not a gamer or anything like that, so my needs aren't quite as lavish). But it would be nice if creative could come up with kind of a "light" drivers/software set.

If I had a gripe against what I have now.... then this would be it.

try asio4all on the realtek.

You can configure it to get nice low latency, and control outputs quite nicely too.

I tried asio4all and it worked great in XP.... but not so great in Vista. On the other hand I was never really too sure it was built for Vista in the first place.

blink, have you checked the web site lately?
I noticed that he's claiming " General Vista compatibility improved".

Mike