"When these users voice this disappointment that the features were not inlcuded, some of hte forum feel as if they are high and mighty and tell the users to switch to other products if they dont like it or to stop whining."

That could because some (not all) of the whiners have left the impression in their complaints that they and their needs are "higher and mightier" than everyone else's and then they threaten to go to another software.

My only point in posting this was to show the process that the engineers have to go through. Peter's explanation sheds a new light on the process, the whys and wherefores when the decisions are made.

J--

"I am very disappointed that HD capture support was not included when it could have been easily included."

Uh... it is.. Sony J-H3 HDCam deck support. Sony was demoing this using the downconverter in the deck (pocket change at $26,000) to capture at DV25 and use that to offline edit using the XPri as the online editor. Everyone's complaining about HD support... well for a few thousand dollars it's there and it works beautifully. Just not there cheaply. I don't see how it could be.

mike

"well for a few thousand dollars it's there and it works beautifully. Just not there cheaply. I don't see how it could be."

Cineform, $499. cheaper than your solution but still something Sony could have added.

"... but still something Sony could have added."

No they couldn't, not based on Peter's explanation.

J--

Well, according to the cineform page, their solutions already work with Vegas...

"
"... but still something Sony could have added."

No they couldn't, not based on Peter's explanation."

My point was they could have especially since all stuff you read anymore is NLEs pushing HD material. I dont think we will see HD support until SONY releases their HDV camera. Call it a hunch. Just think it is possible that if the HD support would be there now, there wouldnt be as many later on that would buy SONY HDV,

Cineform works with Vegas. They were demoing it at NAB. So there you go if you're dealing with HDV and DVHS but not DVCAM or DVCProHD. Guess it depends on your view of what HD is. I don't think HDV is even impressive until Sony does it in 1080p with their upcoming camera. So support? Depends on which flavor you're using. As for Cineform with Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5? I didn't see it, however you still need an SDI / HD card to work with Cineform so your cost is more than $499 if you're doing anything above HDV.

mike

"Sheds a new light on the process"
As a software developer myself I'd have to wonder just what light anyone thinks was there before! It doesn't matter if it's software or anything else there's always a limitation on development resources. Someone has to decide what can be done with the resources available and what the priorities are. And I can tell you estimating how long any software project will take (read cost) is extremely difficult. Mostly by the time you have a clear idea of how much resource it'll take you've got the job 80% complete.
But there's a bit more to it than that. Within the core of code like Vegas there will be some things that simply cannot be achieved without breaking most of the other functionality or at least the look and feel of the thing.

>>>As for Cineform with Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5? I didn't see it, however you still need an SDI / HD card to work with Cineform so your cost is more than $499 if you're doing anything above HDV.<<<

From Cineform:

At NAB 2004, CineForm introduced Prospect HD™ for Adobe® Premiere® Pro, the world’s first software-based 10-bit real-time high-definition (HD) video engine.

Also from Cineform:

At NAB 2004, CineForm is announcing version 2.2 of Aspect HD for Adobe Premiere Pro. This new version includes real-time support for all HDV™ resolutions and frame rates including 480p60, 576p50, 720p30, 720p60, and 1080i60.

So Cineform does have the plug-ins for PremierePro. Connect HD is the version for Vegas. Either way though it is a plug-in, not native/built in and that leads to the comment of HD/HDV "still something Sony could have added".

As for Vegas having built in HD/HDV support - you can (and have been able to) render to HD/HDV as well as import it. What has been missing is built in support for capture and export. What is mentioned above is that Vegas is able to bring in HD via firewire from the J-H3 HDCAM and *downconvert* to DV.(The deck itself also allows for downconverting - It plays HDCAM material recorded at 23.98psF, 24PpsF, 25psF(50i) 29.97psF(59.94i) and 30psF. It also has built-in down conversion capability, offering NTSC or PAL composite video output from the BNC and RCA output connectors. ) It is still a very great thing to have so don't get me wrong, not saying it isn't. If you have 30 grand to invest in the Sony Deck it would be great. For those with the JVC HDV camera or the DVHS deck you still have to get a third party plug-in. And that made me post in another thread that I was wondering why Vegas didn't include the ability to capture and output HDV/DVHS because Main Concept just released their "MPEG Pro" plug-in for Premiere Pro that comes in an HD flavor - With the HD version you can capture directly into Premiere Pro from JVC’s JY-HD10U camcorder. - My question in my post was that the codecs seem the same, just the custom interface to the NLE is allowing the capture.

And while were on the subject of HD - Black Magic cards - woooo hoooo!!! If they can get a native interface in an upgrade to Vegas 5 (b? c? d?) for the Black Magic cards I will jump in head first...feet first? hands first? Their codec works nicely in Vegas so one can already output and import HD for the card and the cost is just...awesome.

If Cineform are already giving us a way to edit HDV withing Vegas then Sony should NOT be adding it in themselves. This is the quickest way to get people offside. uStuff cop so much flack over doing just that.
Why would 3rd party developers expend their shareholders money writing tools for Vegas if in the next Vegas release they become obsolete. And why should all of us have to bear the development costs for something that we may not need?
Many of the questions being raised about what's in and what's not in this release are at the core quite valid. It's not as simple as saying there was resource limitations, well duhh. The questions go as to how and why those decisions were made. I am simply questioning the wisdom of adding functionality that was already doable outside of Vegas at the expense of providing functionality that simply cannot be done outside of Vegas. None of the things being complained about matter to me directly so I'm not having a dummy spit over them but I'm not entirely happy about the course that the ship is taking.

Filmy,
reading between the lines of what you're saying. Using the Cineform plugins one can capture from GR-HD10, edit in Vegas and output via SDI to HDCAM decks?

If I read that right it's pretty impressive. Apart from the poor quality of the camera the other big isssue has been how to get the edited footage back to an industry standard format.

"If Cineform are already giving us a way to edit HDV withing Vegas then Sony should NOT be adding it in themselves."

With all due respect, I seriously disagree. For software that has been touted to support the future of HD and a lot of this comes in press releases and marketing, SONY should definitely add things that are beneficial even if third party developers make competing products. SONY could increase their market share if certain functions that people are hoping for were included.


"Why would 3rd party developers expend their shareholders money writing tools for Vegas if in the next Vegas release they become obsolete. And why should all of us have to bear the development costs for something that we may not need?"


Microsoft has made a living off this very model. Thats why in Longhorn you will see DVD burning abilities. That is why CD writing was added and Movie Maker. Granted, none of these programs hold a candle to their competitors but MS adds it because people are not as gung ho about buying third party products.

Personally, I dont like third party plugins. I use them and I buy them. But the biggest risk is if they dont function correctly. Then you have to bounce back and forth between developers while each company passes the buck and blames the other company's product. (I.E. Premiere 6.5 and Windows Media Encoder 9.)

For a company like SONY to say HD is definitely the future of VV and then not include even basic capture support left me a little shocked. As I said before, Its very well possible that the first HD cam that SONY supports will be its own HDV cam.

By SONY not including it leaves its loyal customer base open to pay whatever third party developers decide they want to charge and until a NLE supports HD capture without a third party device/codec, the prices will remain rather steep. Once one of the main NLEs support HD capture out of the box will the price for such plugins begin to fall.

Personally, I am not a big fan of Cineform and nor do I see myself purchasing their products (especially since a downloable demo isnt even available.), and definitley not at $500. So if SONY were to include this functionality, I could care less if Cineform went bankrupt.

I am definitely in agreeement that the future does hold a uncertainity. For now, I will handle it. Not much other choice.

>>>reading between the lines of what you're saying. Using the Cineform plugins one can capture from GR-HD10, edit in Vegas and output via SDI to HDCAM decks?<<<

I don't know about the Cineform workflow that well. I do know it will allows the capture of the material, but it puts it into it's own usable form for editing, thusly the plug-in part of it all. As for output I believe it is dependant on the NLE - in other words if the NLE supports it, it will output it. This is from Cineform: Connect HD allows you to capture content directly from HDV camcorders and DVHS decks in full HD resolution. You can then edit in full HD resolution using any video application that supports HD resolution. Finally, you can export to any format your video application provides. So if Vegas allowed for PTT of the material sure.

THis is where I think the Black Magic cards will come into play. For the cost of some of these software solutions you can get a hardware solution. The lowest cost SD card from them is $300.00. (Output to any SDI based broadcast digital deck, such as Sony Digital Betacam, D1, Panasonic DVC Pro 25, DVC Pro 50, D5, Sony J series. All digital decks with industry standard SDI connections are supported, and setup is quick and easy. So I am thinking the Sony J-H3 is supported by this card, and Vegas 5 already says it will bring in HDCam material in a 'downcoverted to DV' format, so part of the floorplan is already laid out) The HD (NOT HDV) cards are between $2,000 and $3,000. (Not cheap mind you but still a huge price differance from what you would be looking at a few years ago). Connect HD for Vegas SRP is $499 and you still need the hardware if you wanted to output via SDI.

Maybe SonyEPM or Spot might mention how Vegas interacts with the BlackMagic cards....not asking them to actually talk about future development of Vegas mind you, just how BlackMagic works out with it. ;)

Oh - and I think that the Main Concept codec would allow for HDV/DVHS input and output provided the interface were there in Vegas.

Filmy,
$3K to output HD is very cheap, considering the cost of the decks it's very small change. Getting a system that can keep up is another issue as well. Being able to load the whole project into a high end system just for finishing and output is also very attractive.

Bob.

I'll comment on how Vegas interacts....VERY nicely. It was not only being shown in the Sony booth, but in the Blackmagic booth, and a couple other show floor booths. Impressive editing, snappy workflow that I wasn't expecting after what I'd seen last year. Grant and his team have got some awesome things going. I'm SURE you'll be hearing more about this all soon.

I certainly share your concerns over 3rd party plugins. There's not just the issue of it not working right but also it breaking the host app. Probably though the best answer is to licence the technology, much the same as Vegas does with mpeg and mp3 encoders.
Probably HDV isn't a good example to make my case on and I think DVCPRO 50 is another capability that's lacking, again of zero interest to me but I do see a gulf looming between FCP and the PC NLEs, Apple seem to be getting very palsy with Panasonic and Sony are smarting over the DVX100, read into that what you will.

That said though, I don't see why the gripe over even $1,000 for a HDV plugin! Presumably you want to ouput to a broadcastable medium, that'll set you back around $3K for a HD SDI card, heaven knows how much for a disk array that'll keep up and if you wanted to buy your own deck, yipes!

But I see that Sony have a different view, you can ingest a HD proxy using a J-H3 which isn't that expensive by HD standards, edit the DV proxy in Vegas and then bring the project into a XPRI system for finishing and output. That workflow means you're working with real HD, probably even CineAlta footage at 24p and the sky is the limit.

So if you're really serious about HD, remember you can hire the cameras and the VCRs. Still expensive for sure but you can now do the editing at home on a quite low cost Vegas system and then only have to pay for a small amount of time on a high end system. Sure this isn't going to be cheap but it's suddenly become a hell of a lot cheaper than it was.