Diskeeper, removable drives combination Maybe BAD NEWS

BillyBoy wrote on 8/4/2003, 9:57 PM
This is more of a warning. What happened to me may just be an isolated case, however I just dodged a bullet.

Diskeeper as many of you know is a disk defragementation application. It comes in several flavors, I'm using the Home version. There is a "feature" that automatically sets disk volumes to be defragged at such and such time. You can change when this happens or tell it to not defrag at all, or I should say that's what suppose to happen.

This morning I did what I've done dozens of times before. I removed one of my "portable" drives in a drawer from my upstairs PC and put it in my downstairs PC.
I stared to render a small project in Vegas. It got maybe twenty minutes into it and my system locked up. I figured oops, maybe I went too far with my overclocking. So I tried again, second crash but at a different time.

I next looked at the Event log. Diskeeper caused the hang. What happened and it wasn't the first time, is Diskeeper out of the blue decided it was time to defrag my portable drive. Remember it wasn't scheduled. In fact is was set to NEVER be defraged automatically. Since this was the drive I was rendering from, crash. OK, that made me mad enough, but just as a precaution I ran checkdisk.

Windows has a neverous breakdown. This is a NTFS volume on a 200 GB drive. I have lots of important files on it. Because the crash happened due to Diskeeping attempting to defrag it and hung in the middle it trashed part of the file allocation table. That's a big bad mistake that can cause you to loose much if not all of your data on the drive, because the file allocation table is what records what's where on the drive. Without it Windows is blind. Actually, now that I think about it, I think the file allocation table is called something else in NTFS, but anyhow...

Lucky for me it was a NTFS file system and while one warning page after another flew place warning this is bad, and so is this, and this and this on a pretty pale blue screen NTFS is a self-repairing file system so it was able to recover. I can only imagine how screwed I would have been if this was a older FAT 32 file system.

So needless to say I hosed Diskeper and it never will see the light of day on any of my computers again.

So if you have Diskeeper, and use removable drives what happens when you shuffle them around is Diskeeper not being the brightest software sees the drive as a "new" drive and all on its own does you the "favor" of trying to defrag it, not when you tell it, rather whenever it feels like without any kind of warning at all. I can do without such crude software.

Comments

bjtap wrote on 8/4/2003, 11:09 PM
Billy Boy,
Did you contact Executive Software about this? If so, what was their reply?
Thanks,
Barry
filmy wrote on 8/4/2003, 11:19 PM
oooohhhhhh...thanks BB. I use Diskeeper. Since I got rid of my external firewire I have not used a removable drive.
The only weird thing thus far was about a week ago when I booted up I got this error screen saying that my demo had expired and I would not be able to use Diskeeper any more. Never got the message before and not since and diskeeper is fine. Thanks for your report however...scary.

BillyBoy wrote on 8/4/2003, 11:53 PM
I did sent a email, waiting for a reply. What bugged me was since this did happen before I made sure all the removables are delisted which was basically what Executive software said to do the last time this happened which was some months back. For awhile everything was fine, then somehow just the act of sliding in one of the drive drawers trips Diskeeper up and on its own it sets the drive to defrag it. It almost a stealth thing because while Diskeeper starts up, it doesn't make its presence known. So if you're in the middle of something you won't know until you get a system hang which can happen if some other application is accessing the drive and has open files, like when I was rendering. Of course if you get a system hang while you're in a defrag all bets are off since sectors of who knows what is being moved around.

When I talked to them the last time the reason they gave for the auto start was that it was a "feature" and since the home version is mainly aimed at the more inexperiened crowd they thought it would be helpful and they pointed out, well you can disable it. That's true, but not so apparently if you pop external drives in and out where its a hit or miss thing.

What's a little curious is I have two removable drawers each in my upstairs and downstairs PC's. Each a slave/master on a seperate IDE controller and I give each a high drive letter so Windows woudln't get confused and swap drive letters based on the presense or absense of the removable drive. I've had my newest system running for about six weeks now and I've swapped drives in and out dozens of times already. This is first time Diskeeper started up.

On the funny side, for the first time I've seen some new Windows error messages I didn't know were buried in the code when it reports and fixes a NTFS system. On a fast PC, they go by so fast you can't really read them, somethimg about attributes in such and such damaged, Windows attempting to recover blah, blah, blah, dozens and dozens of lines flying by and me just shaking my head. Windows did fix itself though, which I guess is pretty impressive in itself.
kentwolf wrote on 8/5/2003, 12:01 AM
Just my experience:

I regularily render projects to the same drive the is being defragged by DiskKeeper (Pro). This is not my optimal choice, but it happens all the time. Render will be running, then the defrag will kick in. I have never had any problems at all.

I do know that DiskKeeper seemingly will run some sort of check of the drive's defrag level, but I personally have never had it just start defragging. I assume this activity have to do with Smart Schedule, it it were invoked. That's just a guess. Since there is some sort of DiskKeeper activity, I removed it from my (seperate) video capture partition. This DiskKeeper activity caused dropped frames.

...but to reiterate, I will regularily be rendering to a drive (I have 8 of them, all fixed drives) that it being defragged by DiskKeeper and have had no problems. It has been this way for several months.

...but that's just me...

Note: Executive Software techincal support was extremely helpful to me regarding a question I had some time ago. First Class, A++ service.
BillyBoy wrote on 8/5/2003, 12:34 AM
Risky business! The problem with running a defrag operation while files are open is not only the danger of corrupting the files open if you get a system hang, also you have no idea or control over what sectors may happen to be being read or written to because of course the whole idea behind defragging is to make fragemented files whole again by wrting them to continous sectors and during defragging many of the clusters are moved all over the drive and being shuffled around like crazy.

Not trying to tell you what to do, simply what you're risking. When defragging all files on the volume should be closed. When some files are open Windows on top of the defragger may decide give me sectors such and such for files X, Y, Z. If that happens, at best maybe only a page fault. At worse your entire volume integerity can be blown out...like almost happened to me. Way too big a risk, I could have lost several thousand hours of work.

I agree, Executive software seems helpful. But REALLY boneheaded to have your application start up on its own and start moving file clusters around unasked and unwanted. On the stupid scale such recklessness in sloppy programming ranks a 10.
That's like Vegas on its own deciding oh I'm going to delete the middle ten minutes of whatever you have on your timeline and not tell you.
TRS80 wrote on 8/5/2003, 1:01 AM
I've had this problem a few times and in my case it was caused by a corrupted DkData.ctl file in the Executive Software directory. Delete this file and Diskeeper will rebuild a new one and you're good to go. I find the corruption to the .ctl file occurs after you change options a few times. It gets confused. In fact, I often delete this file before I change any options so I create a fresh file. I'm running W2K. I like Diskkeeper.



kentwolf wrote on 8/9/2003, 1:25 AM
>>...a corrupted DkData.ctl file...

Interesting. I definitely made a note of this for future reference.

Thanks!