DivX and Vegas 7.0?

Marco. wrote on 10/19/2006, 3:45 AM

Did you try reinstalling DivX after the Vegas upgrade?

Marco

VanLazarus wrote on 10/19/2006, 7:00 AM

I uninstalled DivX completely (and all it's components). I even went into the registry and removed any sections regarding DivX. Still no go in Vegas 7.0b.

Surprisingly, the DivX codec still knew that I had already registered it, so it must be storing some info that I can't remove... not sure if this has any impact on why Vegas will not understand an AVI encoded with DivX 6.x.

VanLazarus wrote on 10/19/2006, 7:32 AM

I found a solution. One needs to change the FourCC code for the AVI file. This FourCC code identifies which codec was used to compress the AVI. Apparently DivX 6.4 is setting it to a value of 'DX50'. Vegas will understand 'DivX'. I have no idea if this is the DivX codecs fault for changing its FourCC code or if Vegas is just looking for the wrong code.

I found a free FourCC code changing program here: http://www.free-codecs.com/AVI_FourCC_Code_Changer_download.htm

You can use it to change the FourCC code to 'DivX' and Vegas will once again be able to read the AVI file.

I guess it would be nice if Vegas 7.0b was more robust in interpreting FourCC codes.

VanLazarus wrote on 10/21/2006, 8:27 AM

Unfortunately, even if Vegas is able to read a DivX file with a FourCC code changed to "DIVX", it handles it very poorly!!! Previewing DivX video is horrible.... about 1 frame a second. And rendering is just as bad!!! It takes about 1 minute to render 30 frames of DivX video!!!! Therefore DivX is currently unusable with Vegas!!!

Sony, why is parsing of DivX video in Vegas so slow????

VanLazarus wrote on 11/5/2006, 12:06 PM

Can anyone from the Madison development team answer my questions? Why are DivX clips unusable with Vegas 7.0?

VanLazarus wrote on 11/11/2006, 4:49 AM

Sorry to be a pain in the *** about this, but I really would like some feedback from someone on the development team on why DivX is so slow within Vegas 7.0b.

Laurence wrote on 11/11/2006, 7:10 AM

The only way I can make a DiVX file is to render uncompressed and compress that file with the little utility that comes with DiVX. The actual DiVX conversion this way is incredibly quick.

VanLazarus wrote on 11/11/2006, 7:27 AM

More information in my ongoing saga with Vegas and DivX...

Vegas seems to forget what type of codec a DivX clip uses. When I initially insert a DivX clip into the timeline, Vegas usually handles it perfectly and fast (provided the FourCC code is divx and not DX50). In the project media list, Vegas correctly tells me that the clip's codec is "DivX 6.4.0 Codec (2 Logical CPUs)".

But after some undeterminable time, Vegas forgets what codec this clip uses and takes about 1 second to parse each frame of a DivX clip. Unfortunately, Vegas still usually correctly lists the clips codec as "DivX 6.4.0 Codec (2 Logical CPUs)"... I say 'usually', because sometimes it starts listing its codec as just "divx". I used to think there was a relation between slow renders and being listed as just "divx" but my latest tests had clips correctly listed but now rendered terribly slow. Sometimes, when I replace these DivX clips with the same clip but with a different codec, and then replace it back again with the DivX clip, Vegas understands again and renders it fast.... but only for a short time.

There seems to be no rhyme or reason why Vegas renders DivX fast sometimes and slow other times. It seems Vegas has a case of Alzheimers with DivX. Sometimes it knows the codec, sometimes not..... sometimes it even thinks it knows, but doesn't.

Anyone have any idea what is going wrong?

VanLazarus wrote on 11/11/2006, 7:35 AM

Laurence,

I don't understand what you're trying to say. I know I can compress uncompressed video (generated with Vegas) with DivX.... either with DivX's conversion tool or with tools like VirtualDub. That's not my problem.

I want to use DivX clips WITHIN the Vegas timeline without waiting 10 years for a render because Vegas gets a lobotamy at random times when encountering DivX compressed clips!

I need to be able to do this to avoid always using uncompressed source clips within my projects. I have over a terabyte of storage and still can't afford to use uncompressed clips all the time! Neither do I want to backup huge uncompressed source clips for projects! Most of the time a DivX clip with a high bit rate (6000+) and keyframes every frame is the perfect solution for my problem.... Unfortunately, if Vegas decides to take forever when parsing DivX, my solution is broken!

Laurence wrote on 11/11/2006, 8:01 AM

My mistake, I thought you wanted to render to DiVX. When I try rendering to DiVX it seems to get right to the end and lock up as it's writing the header. Your problem is completely different.

VanLazarus wrote on 11/11/2006, 11:09 AM

Laurence,

Yes, I've also found Vegas having problems rendering directly to DivX. I've had problems in the past where the sound always gets out of sync when using Vegas to render a DivX video. My work-around for over two years has always been to render to uncompressed, then do a two-pass compression to DivX with VirtualDub. Then I can delete the huge uncompressed file.

But my main problem with DivX is not regarding the final output video... it's using DivX clips as source clips in the project.

Of course, it would be nice if Vegas could render to DivX directly as well.

bStro wrote on 11/11/2006, 11:23 AM

When you say "uncompressed source clips," do you actually mean uncompressed, or do you mean DV AVI? If you actually mean Uncompressed, you could start by using DV AVI instead. Or, if that still gives you files larger than you want, try using Huffyuv or Lagarith.

Personally, I don't think it's reasonable to expect smooth or consistent performance using DivX files on the timeline. The internal techniques that make DivX excel as a delivery format are the same that make it unsuitable as an editing format. That's not Vegas' fault, it's just the way the codec is. Most any NLE will give you similar problems when you try to use them to edit a DivX file.

Rob

kkmf wrote on 11/11/2006, 11:28 AM

does anyone know why only the video portion show on avi files and the audio portion says that the stream attributes could not be determined?

VanLazarus wrote on 11/11/2006, 2:44 PM

bStro,

The original clips are not DV....

Here are some examples of my source clips that I need in another (preferably small) format before including them in a Vegas project:

1) Fraps encoded AVI captured from Google Earth that I want in a more friendly format for Vegas. Fraps encoded AVI files are not handled very efficiently by Vegas, not to mention that Fraps Encoded AVIs are huge.

2) MPG files that due to it's large gaps between key frames is not handled well by any NLE.

3) A 30fps AVI motion jpg clip (from a still camera) that I want to include in a NTSC 29.97fps project.... but unfortunately I must rerender these clips at the new framerate of 29.97fps before including them in the project because of a Vegas bug that incorrectly interlaces these clips when changing the framerate.

Of course, I can rerender these all to uncompressed RGB clips and consume hundreds of gigs of hard drive space. I haven't tried converting them to DV format because I was under the impression that DV is a format geared toward interlaced video. Perhaps I can try using DV.... it is considerably smaller than uncompressed RGB. Is it possible to convert a clip to DV outside of Vegas? (I don't want to use Vegas as it's not geared toward simple conversion of files) Are there any free DV codecs that can be used within VirtualDub?

I agree that using any format that uses keyframes is not a desirable format for a NLE. But you can instruct DivX when it is compressing to make every frame a keyframe and thus it should be easy and fast for any NLE to parse in any direction through a DivX AVI compressed with keyframes for every frame.

And besides, Vegas IS capable of parsing through DivX files fast and easily.... so the format is not problematic for Vegas some of the time.... unfortunately, Vegas seems to forget what DivX is.... and suddenly processes them very slowly!

It used to be able to handle DivX clips ALL the time.... and now it can't. I want to know why.

VanLazarus wrote on 11/11/2006, 2:58 PM

kkmf,

The audio stream could not be determined because you don't have the audio codec installed on your machine that the clip uses. Perhaps it's AC3 and you need to install that codec. Use an AVI information tool to find out what audio codec your clip is using.

Laurence wrote on 11/11/2006, 2:58 PM

I usually use uncompressed because I want a slightly different format than DV. Usually 640 by 480 or 360 with no interlace. I've been meaning to try Huffy but haven't gotten around to it yet.

bStro wrote on 11/11/2006, 3:36 PM

I want to know why.

I told you why. Because Divx performance in most NLE's is inconsistent. If that answer's not good enough for you, I'm sorry. If you want to hear from Sony, you should e-mail them directly because they don't generally answer technical questions posted on this forum (other than immediately after a new release).

They will either give you an answer similar to mine, tell you that Divx is not a supported format on the Vegas timeline, or they will not even answer you at all.

Are there any free DV codecs that can be used within VirtualDub?

Both of the codecs I mentioned, Huffyuv and Lagarith, can be found online. In fact, run VirtualDub and check its list of codecs -- they may already be there.

Good luck. ;-)

Rob

kkmf wrote on 11/11/2006, 4:03 PM

VanLazarus

It's strange...When I used GSpot on 2 avi files, one that imports audio and one that doesn't, the information is identical??? I can't figure out why it won't show the audio. And I can't import most asf files either....thanks for trying to help....

Jayster wrote on 11/11/2006, 4:04 PM

VanLazarus:
Do you have Cineform's HD Connect? Their new versions will convert basically any file format that has a DirectShow codec on the machine (i.e. if it plays in Windows Media Player, it'll convert it). It now handles different sizes & framerates, and does the conversion for you. And it handles SD, not only HD. The CFDIs are smaller than uncompressed, for sure.

DrLumen wrote on 11/11/2006, 6:07 PM

As to your Divx problem... With the newest version of divx, they did something that Vegas doesn't like. Like you found, it may only be the FourCC but I haven't checked your fix yet. Previous versions of divx files could be brought into Vegas with no problem.

I don't think the question is "Why doesn't Vegas detect the new Divx files?" but should be "Why did Divx change their format?"

Since there is no "standard' or "specification" for Divx there will always be these type problems with apps other than Divx; or any other codec for that matter. It doesn't do any good to blame Sony. It's like blaming them for Vegas not importing protected WMA files. We may not like it but there is not much Sony can do about it; well, at least not legally.

VanLazarus wrote on 11/12/2006, 3:37 AM

bStro,

Thank-you for your feedback. Unfortunately, telling me something is inconsistent is not telling me why it's inconsistent. I know firsthand that Vegas's handling of DivX is inconsistent.

I was under the impression that if every frame of a video clip can be recreated without needing to read other frames, then an NLE should be able to handle the clip consistently and efficiently. When you tell a codec to make every frame a key frame, then it should be possible to go to any position within the clip and display that frame without a lot of work. Is my thinking incorrect?

I will try the other codecs you have mentioned.

VanLazarus wrote on 11/12/2006, 3:42 AM

DrLumen,

I have contacted DivX Networks as well, but so far no response. It is possible that they have done something weird with the latest version of DivX, but I thought that the basic structure has been the same for a long time. I thought that codecs like DivX and Xvid use a standard MPEG 4 structure, and that most of the recent modification has been in how intelligent they compress video, not in changes made to the storage structure... but I could be wrong.

Wolfgang S. wrote on 11/12/2006, 6:40 AM

Frankly spoken, I do not understand this discussion here really. Even if it is true that most cutters will not edit DivX, I have purchased the new Xoro HD 8500 standalone player - allowing to playback HD-files (m2t, mpeg-PS, wmv-HD but also DivX).

So, I see divX 6.4 as a final format for such a HD-player.

But since I have the divX 6.4 on my PC (3.2 Ghz P4, 1 GB Ram), I tried to put DivX material in my timeline (an event with 1440x1080, PAR 1.333 - interlaced uff, PAL 25 fps). What I see is that it takes some seconds until playback starts. But with the preview on the external monitor (internal preview deactivated) ant he preview quality "preview(full" I see here playback capabilities around 13 to 16 fps. With HDV material I see 25 fps.

Ok, that sounds fine for me - even if I do not recommend to edit divx material at all.

RexA wrote on 11/12/2006, 11:09 AM

>Anyone have any idea what is going wrong?

Nothing.

Vegas, like most NLEs, is designed to work with individual frames. The encoding of Mpeg is based on groups of frames. The first frame of the group ("I" frame, if I remember right) is encoded standalone. The next several frames are encoded based on differences between frames. In fact it is very complicated with some frames encoded by looking both forward and back. This makes editing a real challenge, since the editor must construct the content of a frame from the mpeg codec and then keep track of any changes that have been applied to that frame. I have no real idea how that is actually accomplished, but it has to be ugly.

Once you make a few changes using the editor, it now has to recreate all this work every time you move back and forth through the project. (Convert from mpeg to frame-by-frame, apply your changes, and then show you the resulting frame.)

A few editing packages are designed to do simple cut editing on mpeg. They understand mpeg encoding and leave it untouched except in regenerating the reagion around a cut. A standard NLE like Vegas has to constantly juggle between mpeg and frame-by-frame views of the media. Once you start changing frames the editor has an incredible amount of work to do to keep track of things.

Divx is based on mpeg4 so all of this applies when you edit. If you edit mpeg with Vegas it will need to be completely re-encoded when rendered out. This will cause some loss of quality. If you want to just do simple cut editing, one of the editors that understands mpeg and leaves most of the encoding untouched will work better than Vegas.

If you want to do editing that will change frames (fades, overlays, color correction, etc.) and you must use an mpeg encoded video as your source, your best bet is to start by re-encoding the mpeg to DV first, then use the DV copy as your source for the subsequent editing. You can convert with some other app or by loading the mpeg into Vegas and immediately render into DV. DV can be encoded either as progressive or interlaced, depending on the settings (to answer one of your earlier questions).

If you search the forum for discussions of mpeg editing, you should be able to find huge amounts of discussions related to this subject.