Bob, does your, "It's not a bad idea" mean you HAVE done this or seen others do it? I'm looking for feedback on the video use of this approach and on its efficacy when then imported into Vegas for CC work? I liked your reference to its use within 35mm stills work. I didn't know that.

The Guy demonstrating just how the "punching-up" of the colours from a tungsten created that gorgeous golden colour just blew away my ideas.

. .and yes . . Video IS sad compared to film ...

Grazie

Applying a bit of Aussie logic to your question I think my answer would be "Why not?", not like 10 seconds of tape is going to cost you that much. Also if your slates are white you also shoot them, don't you.
To be specific, no I don't shoot white cards but I don't get to actually shoot much video and I've never seen any on a tape either.

I don't use slates .. another reason TO use them I guess. But I ain't that pro. But that is ALL too obvious.

Oz logic? Well can't answer to that one! - No, I was wanting to know how people who DO use WB reference cards at the time of video and VIDEOING them, then go ahead and USE this reference within Vegas CC . . yeah? That's Limey logic . .

Grazie

OK, I watched much of the videos. Thing is these are for digital still cameras. They record a LOT more data than video cameras, particularly in RAW mode, don't know the repcise figures but certainly more than 8 bit.
Think of it this way. DV is only just capable of recording an acceptable image, that's a limitation of the DV25 encoding scheme. This means there isn't a whole lot of data to spare, or not much latitude. So the onus is on the smarts in the camera to get the best possible image into the encoder, typical video cameras gather 10 to 14 bit data which then is intelligently crunched down to fit into the available bandwidth and an aweful lot of what the CCDs gathered is ditched in the process.
Applying gain to any channel in post is going to cause grief if it's anything significant, that's the whole idea behind those 'warm' WB cards, you can fool the camera into making adjustments that are nigh impossible in post.
Bob.

Thanks Bob!

So it is a case of "Little In - Little Out" and with video I don't have enough to play with to get those great colours the chap using the stills thing can get. Now THAT makes sense - even to this lad.

Soooo.. when videoing we set WB at the time of capturing/recording because we have a device that doesn't have a great ability to capture enough "depth" to then make use of WB cards as this chap did to make a difference.

Thank you Bob! - He's videos are good at the message across though? Yeah?

Grazie

The videos are very good.
Don't dispair, you can get some pretty impressive results out of DV, it's just that with DV what happens in front of the lens is even more critical than with most other imaging systems.
Bob.

I just went out and took some test footage with the white card in shot. On the playback monitor the card was white (thank goodness) but very washed out and I was wondering when setting WB with a card should the exposure settings be correct or does it make no difference? AND why not have a pure black portion on the card to balance the black to in Vegas?

Best is to have a pure gray card. Pure black or white, as you have found out, are not always useful for color balance in post, even though they are useful when balancing the camera in the field.

Grazie, very interesting! Shooting both still and video (though much less stills these days), I've pondered this same concept myself, especially in light of the Color Corrector in Vegas.

In theory, it sounds like it should work. In practical application, I have a reservation--exposure. While the WhiBal would aid in color balance, there is still the possibility that "exposure" could/would affect the final outcome. For $40 it would be worth it just for the sake of the experiment!

Thanks for sharing that link. Very interesting, indeed.

I was wondering when setting WB with a card should the exposure settings be correct or does it make no difference?

Mike, yes, it would make a difference. Your exposure will always determine the accuracy of colors rendered in the image--motion or still. Since you (the editorial you) always have to set exposure (using the zebra) before video taping, you could use the cards for that in addition to white balancing.

Having said that, there is a drawback. Recently, I was shooting some video during the very late afternoon, just before sunset. The light had a beautiful, warm, amber glow to it, and that's what I wanted. Had I done a traditional white balance, I would have lost the warmth the light had. So the cards could still be used as an exposure reference, a white balance reference, or both.

I thought so too Jay.

When is a Correct White/Grey colour on a WB card within Vegas Colour Corrector - er . .Correct? THEN we have the element of badly adjusted LCD screens ( hands up here! ) and what am I seeing within the Vegas Preview screen that I might select with the eyedropper? - On this side of the Pond I use my JVC monitor and use my LCD screen JUST to locate it.

The more I thought about, the WhiBals approach, the more intriguing it got.

I suppose I'm lucky in one sense, in as much I came to this technology - DV/AV/AVI/DVD well late in life. I know I must sometimes irritate the 'ell out of some people here . . but that is the cost of someone, like me, who really is quite "new" to this wonderful craft - I do tend to ask "sideways" questions - no coincidence here . . I just don't know enough to NOT ask the darn question! Huh!

Hey ho . . .

Grazie

I know I must sometimes irritate the 'ell out of some people here...

Not from where I stand.

... someone, like me, who really is quite "new" to this wonderful craft - I do tend to ask "sideways" questions...

Ah, but that's what makes you so unique. Too often, too many of us (myself included) tend to think we know it all. It's always good to go back re-evaluate our knowledge or what we think we know. I've discovered that what I know, what I remember, and what is turns out to be three different things, most of the time!

... I just don't know enough to NOT ask the darn question!

You just keep asking. You're a thinker, and that's nothing to apologize for! When we stop asking we stop learning.

Grazie et al, I used to use a when I set up (tube) studio cameras many years ago. At that time, I remember reading various articles that some crews would, in addition to color bars, shoot a few seconds of one of these charts at the beginning of every scene. This way, the editor could optimize incoming levels based on what the camera actually saw. Colour bars simply tell you that the camera's electronics are working correctly.
BTW, I used the basic grayscale chart pictured in the link above but the Toni chart looks very interesting and potentially much more useful these days.

Mike

Here's a simple test.
Take your camera and white card into sunlight, WB the camera.
Go indoors under tungsten light, shoot white card and color chip card etc without changing the WB.
Try CCing against the tungsten white card and then see how the color chip card and the rest of the room looks, I'll wager the image gets very noisy if nothing else.
Try the same test with a digital still camera shooting RAW and grading in PS.
This is a pretty extreme test but it should highlight just why white balancing a video camera is pretty important. I've tried correcting way off WB and yes you can get the whites white but you pay a price in other areas.
For my money noisy video doesn't get anywhere near enough attention. Used to be not such a problem but then the silly clients wanted their footage on DVDs and then it became a big problem.
Bob.

This may not be entirely relevant to this thread, but I tried to do a similar thing last fall, and got terrible results. We discussed it in this thread:

Neutral Test Gray Card - Why doesn't it work for color correction?

Hi Grazie. I got a WB card with my Portabrace camera bag, and use it a lot. However, sometimes it is good to experiment.

Often, I WB on a wall or other (slightly coloured) surface to see if the effect is good.

I saw some warm/cool cards for sale on the internet, but considered them a bit expensive, especially when I wasn't sure how useful they would be. So what I did was to reproduce the same colours that the cards had, and printed out my own set onto thin card, which I now keep in the camera bag with the WB card. The Blue 0.5 card, for example, gives a very nice reddish appearance to certain shots, although it's not suitable for everything.

I have also done WB on a cloudless blue sky. Again, you wouldn't want to use this effect a lot, but it can be worth a try to see if the effect works in your context.

Irritate? Nahhhh!

Richard

I find that throwing the WB off in-camera is hard to duplicate using the Sony Color Corrector. If you comapre different white balances in-camera, the colors don't shift in a consistent way on the vectorscope.

The overall gist of white balancing you can duplicate in post however (i.e. warm/cool).

Why does'nt the Sony CC have eye droppers to select the pure white and pure black spot like Photoshop. Seems I always have to streach the black/white points in Levels after CCing.