A security module you plug into your PC. Without it, you can't run the progam. Mine is a parallel port one, but I guess they have USB models now.

Anything you do to combat piracy can be overcome. I don't think a dongle will improve things any. When dongles were popular, there were plenty of ways to circumvent them.

Unfortunately, in today's world, software companies must deal with some level of piracy.

If SoFo really wants to reduce piracy, they could always stop offering downloadable demos. Something tells me that they have weighed the pros and cons of that approach and decided it's a better idea to let people try out the software first. However, demos are an easy way for those with low moral values to steal software.

My .02.

Jim

I HATE dongles! While they are hardly noticable on a desktop system, they absolutely SUCK on a laptop! My laptop doesn't even have a parallel port, and I need my three USB ports free (one for my PC300 USB keyboard, one for a USB mouse, and one for my UA-700 audio interface). If Sonic Foundry was to start using a dongle, I would stop it!

I have a desktop system too, but I really like doing a lot of my work on a laptop. A dongle would really get in the way of that.

Laurence Kingston

I also edit on a laptop. It would be a real pisser to head to the home office in California and get there to find that while packing, I forgot to put the dongle in my bag (I'm human). I'm not a big fan of dongles and was under the impression that SoFo's current security system was working. Are there people making "helping" their buddies by loaning them their name and serial number?

-- Jon McPhalen
-- Dallas, TX

Good points. I was under the impression that you could still use a USB port if there was a dongle on it.

Also, it's not just buddies sharing the software. After I purchased Acid Pro 3.0 awhile back, I signed up on the forums. The sign-in process asked for my name and e-mail address. I supplied both. Well, the morning after my first post, I had an e-mail from someone saying "Someone said you were a nice guy and you'd give me your serial number.". Ends up I'm not that nice. He didn't get the number, and my e-mail isn't a real one anymore.

M

There's enough Dongles out there already.
If you have ReelDVD & Canopus Procoder on your system that will be a a parallel dongle for Reel & a USB dongle for Procoder before you get to adding your SF one.

Dongles also have been shown to slow software down.
I hate the buggers personally.
One of my computers has the USB ports disabled to free IRQ addressing so this eliminates certain software. It is not all that uncommon for and editing workstation to have both parallel and USB disabled to free IRQ's.

W

I hate dongles and it makes NO difference to the whether it gets cracked or not. In fact IMHO it will encourage "marginal" users to go with a crack instead. The only crack-proof system is where there is a piece of hardware involved that actually does something intrinsic to the program.

NO dongle!!... if someone wants to steel it bad enough, they will find a way.
Those people aren't the ones that would pay (have the money) to by the software anyways.

When company/industries (ie music industry) get so wrapped up in preventing any piracy of their product, the ultimate loser is always the legit-paying customer -

Where did the music industry get with the millions they dropped into one of their CD protection schemes?.... CDs that people PAY FOR & can't play on their computer while a pirate is enjoying/sharing the tunes compliments of a felttip marker.

As for software demos - If i did not first download the demo, i would have never bought VV
(cuz i simply would never believed how sweet it was - same with Acid)

In the future - i believe anti-piracy software schemes will work - as a dedicated internet connection will be standard & expected(so the app occasionally needs to 'chat' with a central server in order to remain funcional - think MS is currently doing something similar - in fact, doesn't VV also do something like that, to get mp3 capabilities after 30 days??)

music of course will never be able to be protected.

Hopefully software companies will invest more of their time/money towards making their products better, rather then wasting it trying to develop some elaborate (and expensive!) software/hardware protection scheme that ultimatley won't work & only inconvieneces legit customers.

Absolutely NOT! In fact, probably wind up being one of those situations where the licensed users are the biggest user group (distributors?) for the inevitable crack.

That said, a bit of common sense is needed when discussing piracy, & no, I'm not saying it's good or bad [right now it's snowing outside - instead of saying that's good or bad, I'm simply stating that it is snowing.].

Around the world there are countries where software piracy is widespread, & biz use does cut into publisher's profits. In those situations any anti-piracy measures in the software are of very limited use. RE: individuals, there are a lot of folks who collect software - to collect it - not use it. Those folks are not *directly* cutting into anyone's profits, since they wouldn't buy it under any circumstances anyway. If you could determine how many people download a copy of software that would otherwise buy it, you could determine how much their distribution hurts.

There are people who can't afford a program, who aren't able to purchase it -- sometimes the software's price is so outrageous there's no other way to learn & someday be able to afford it. There are folks who simply want to check the software out -- there are companies (not Sonic) whose product descriptions border on fraud, & there are software trials that are totally useless. And yes, some of these people do go on to buy the software.

I don't know of any way to guesstimate any figures -- though obviously saying that every pirated copy of whatever software out there represents a lost sale is simply ridiculous.

This is the often publicly trumpeted logic behind stuff like the activation features in winXP, which costs each and every user of the OS. I truly hope it never happens, but the next time you're locked out of your OS, jumping through hoops to use something you legally bought and paid for, remember that this is a privilege you paid for -- folks using a cracked version *never* have to worry about that problem!

I think we all have some responsibility to consider this stuff, what it's true cost is in terms of the price of software, how much hassle we're willing to put up with, & how much privacy you're willing to give up. It's largely through our voiced comments & buying decisions that the extent of anti-piracy measures are decided.

And finally, I don't think that software (or music) publishers are some special crowd, in some special category or anything else, though one could easily get that impression. Every merchant, bank, credit card company etc. has to deal with theft - you might be surprised by how much. Yet the last time I visited a Walmart, or Kmarts, I didn't have to submit to a full body search, or even give my name and phone number. Walmart makes money, Kmart's in chapt. 11 -- the local Kmart has those scanners at the door, Walmart doesn't. Hmmmmm...

>>There are people who can't afford a program, who aren't able to purchase it --
>>sometimes the software's price is so outrageous there's no other way to learn &
>>someday be able to afford it. There are folks who simply want to check the
>>software out -- there are companies (not Sonic) whose product descriptions border
>>on fraud, & there are software trials that are totally useless.

God forbid anyone should use this logic! This same situation exists in ALL products on the market today, not just software. That certainly doesn't justify someone who steals a car because they can't afford it or because they are afraid that the car's manufacturer didn't accurately describe the handling characteristics in the TV ad!


>> Yet the last time I visited a Walmart, or Kmarts, I didn't have to submit to a
>> full body search, or even give my name and phone number.


You used Microsoft as an example of product activation. There certainly is no invasion of privacy there. All you have to provide to activate Office is the country in which you live. To activate Windows XP, you have to provide nothing other than your CD-key. I have not ever registered software that required me to provide any personal information except for my name.

My .02.

Jim

Guess I'll be going to bed a little smarter about dongles. I didn't think they were that intrusive.
It's good to learn something everyday!

M

Dongles are pure evil, sent to this plane by Dread Forces to confuse the minds of humans and to devour our valuable clock cycles. Turn back friend, nothing good can come of this.:-) Seriously though, Dongles don't prevent piracy, and in some cases they can make your software less functional - and, if your dongle stops functioning (it's been known to happen), you'll be very unhappy sitting around waiting for SOFO to send you a new one.

Just a thought,

Shawn

My experience over the past 20 years-or-so (Yes there were "dongle" type "keys" plugged into the pre-IBM PCs back then) Is that the hardware devices were always a problem -- either they didn't work in a particular hardware/software configuration, they wouldn't fit in a particular parallel slot, or there wasn't room for the printer cable, or the printer (which was not supposed to be affected) was messed up, or one company's dongle wasn't compatible with another's, so you had to constantly unplug one, reboot, and plug in the other depending on which particular application you needed to run.

One client of mine just installed a "dongle" sofware/hardware ap last year, and had to postpone my recording session session until he got his system working --- That cost him thousands, and due to scheduling conflicts, I gave up another job - and $600.00. So I'm still getting done in by these danged things even though I don't have any on my computer!!!

On the other hand, I've only lost 2 hours (due to a "bug" in the early winXP software, since then, supposedly fixed) after a motherboard upgrade) with the Windows "activation" system. Surprisingly, I'm reasonably satisfied with the WinXP activation approach.

FWIW
Travis ( www.announcing.biz )

Hmmm... I very surprised at the resistance.

I only use one program with a dongle (Lightwave 7.5), and admittedly, I only picked it up about two weeks ago, but I've had no problems with it whatsoever. I wouldn't mind a dongle-- but they are not foolproof, either. A co-worker of mine, for example, runs a cracked Production Bundle of AE sans dongle.

That being said, I didn't realize that they were such an issue. Although I tend to fall on the side of developer rights... I have to say that, IF they are the headache that everyone is making them out to be, I'd be against it.

BUT, if a dongle was the only way that SoFo decided to go with V4... it certainly wouldn't be a dealbreaker, either.

David.

You are, in fact, a nice guy ... nice to those hardworking developers who put in the hours to create the product you use and fairly paid for. I wish more people behaved like you; software prices would actually fall if corporations knew that every app running had been paid for.

"IF they are the headache that everyone is making them out to be, I'd be against it.

BUT, if a dongle was the only way that SoFo decided to go with V4... it certainly wouldn't be a dealbreaker, either."


Agreed.

"Dongle" is a funny word
sb

My personal experience is with Parallel Port Dongles. Nothing but trouble. They interfeered with other programs and with printing. Slowing things down was not the only thing they did to other programs.

WEll, Jimco dude!

As to privacy (or lack thereof) Rather then go through the whole spiel re: M$, if you're interested this sums it up without going into extreme length or technical stuff: http://www.arachnoid.com/boycott/index.html .

You compare someone using a pirated piece of software to stealing a car! WOW! OK, if hypothetically someone hacked into a developer's system, downloaded their software, then managed to wipe the hard disk so that no other copy of said software existed except that s/he just downloaded, then yeah -- they took something away from the owner, the same way as if they broke into his house and stole the TV. Again, "I'M NOT SAYING IT'S RIGHT OR WRONG"... I'm just saying your example, well, isn't exactly valid in my book.

Besides, IF someone can't afford a car, there are alternatives! There are cars that sell for various prices, there are (usually) means of public transport, most of us come equipped with 2 feet on which to walk! And one doesn't have to steal a car to learn how to drive, nor is it common for anyone to aspire to a better life through employment gained by learning to drive said stolen car. As for false claims by the auto makers, Dude, I was in the industry for 20+ years, & oh Yeah, the ads do stretch it a bit! So, one researches, & one takes the car for a test drive -- maybe several. One looks the car over, kicks the tires so-to-speak, or should anyway, & as I mentioned, this is not something you can always do with software published by other then these great folks at Sonic! Even when they do offer a trial, it's often the same thing using your analogy as asking to test drive a car, & being allowed to sit in the driver's seat going vroom, vroom.

Any ol' way, rather then belabor the point, right or wrong, some people use pirated software. Some people do steal cars (Oh I could tell you stories there, having worked in the biz). Anyone, including the folks who run &/or own businesses, might desire more money, and often they push the limits getting it (ala Enron etc.). To do so, to get or justify more profit, they may make claims that are a bit beyond exageration. There are examples all around us, with stuff like the tax you pay when you buy a blank cassette tape in the U.S., or the tax you pay when you buy a music CD blank. Some software publishers do the same thing, screaming about piracy, pushing the limits a bit. Just because they publish software does not make them any better or worse then anyone else, and certainly some fit into the Enron &/or Worldcom exec. catagory.

Using M$ as an example, they do have software that I buy and use because there's a lack of alternatives, and yes, some of it is pretty good. I know a little of their hiring practices, and feel assured saying the majority of folks working there are not in any way dummies. Now, real world example: I bought some Norton stuff to work with winXP Pro, their web site assured me of it -- until the next version came out and all of a sudden it was incompatible according to their docs. This Norton junk screwed up the code locations on my hard disc, so when I had a crash (also due to poor software design by another company), the XP activation files were damaged. I was locked out of XP -> it wouldn't let me into windows, asking for activation 1st. Problem was, couldn't do it online since the firewall software hadn't loaded yet. Problem 2, I have about 50% hearing loss, so I can't use the phone to call for activation. Now someone's bound to say: "well there are hearing aids etc." , but those cost significant amounts of $ I don't have, they're not free by any means. The 1st point of that painful lesson was software companies do lie, not exagerate, but lie when it suits them. The 2nd) M$ knows the activation routine will not stop piracy -- knew that from the start -- they had to, & I paid for that activation BS more then once. IF I speak up about it, point out in a hopefully reasoned manner that software publisher greed, poor biz practice, & screwed up anti piracy BS costs me & you & not the pirates, then there's a slight chance that they'll change. If we keep silent, or buy into their exagerations, then we are responsible when it gets worse, & it will!

I've cost Norton by not buying their products, & encouraging others I work with to do the same. Done this with other companies as well. Maybe it'll have a slight impact, maybe it won't. Either way I won't lose sleep over it & my conscience is clean.

Now, once again, to be perfectly clear, I'm not saying ANYTHING is right or wrong, just trying to show both sides of the coin in a reasoned manner. I am trying to say that just because the company makes software, they are not always the good guys. I'm also trying to say don't buy into anything blindly (including what I've just written). Check it out, form your own opinion, & open yourself up to debate the way Jim just did. Just please DON'T forget that just like voting at the polls, your $ does count.

mike

Hey sb,

>>"Dongle" is a funny word

Welllll, these *are* the engineer types who came up with the male/female designation for all those electrical connectors & cables we play with.

What do you think they were referring to? ;p

mike

Don't have the book anymore BUT the Dongle was invented by an Engineer whose first name is Don and family name starts with "g". Back in the DOS days he got pissed off with people pirating his programs and came up with the hardware key.

We've got several of them on the AVID Media Composer box, think they are for the 3D, titling and some other program I've never had cause to open. THey don't affect the system's performance and because a thief would have to go through the Security gate then break through two alarmed doors and contend with motion detectors, I don't think they are truly necessary.

Peter