Express wrote:

The thing I found most interesting is that Sony never chimed in to let us know what their intentions are.

Interesting, maybe. But not surprising. :) I would not expect them to post their "intentions" on this forum until those intentions have been formally announced -- just as it's been with any potential feature(s) to their software.

Rob

Can't disagree with you, that's why I said I hope that they are just waiting...

However, two of the vendors (at least the two that I am aware of) that I mentioned above let their customers know their intentions (in their support forum) - before their Marketing arm announced it...

I think Sony didn't chime in because they don't have a solution for something in the near future. Sonic (as you alluded to on the other thread) has a hypermux engine they taut for creating the most compatible DL discs. They are not adding it however to ALL of their authoring apps. They are going to implement it in their low end apps, and higher end, but curiously are leaving it out of ReelDVD (or at least they aren't advertising it for the near future) and they aren't going to support their Mac applications with it. Nero, Pinnacle, Roxio and the like are going to support DL, but my bet is they will do best with data type discs. There are many apps, including DVD-A, that don't work on all set top players with single layer. My bet is that DL isn't going to make compatibility any better. We waited over a year for end actions to be implemented (a fairly basic feature), I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for dual layer in DVD-A.

I personally see some use for DL, but generally limit my discs to an hour to an hour and a half anyway. For home video, that's longer than most will sit and watch family movies at one time anyway. For training videos the added video time might be handy, but recordable media is much less forgiving than replicated media in terms of withstanding physical abuse. A small scratch could render the entire disc unplayable, and it remains to be seen how well these types of discs hold up (at least in the beginning). They will have to be every bit as durable as their single layer cousins, and hopefully the added complexity of the dual layer doesn't make them more susceptible to disc failure with minor 'trauma'. Time will tell, but for now I'm satisfied with the current limitations.

Jim

I can't say if Sonic will add it to ReelDVD, nor do I think that it is relevant to support in DVDA.

IMO it is relevant that Sony Screenblast's included DVD application will support dual layer. (though I'm not implying that Screenblast will support DL as soon as MyDVD does)

I stated where I got the information from on Sonic products - all, in the other thread. If you have more complete information I applaud you on your discovery.
Leaving it out of ReelDVD does not concern me.
They are getting it into RecordNow, DVDit, MyDVD and Scenarist.
As are Ulead, Pinnacle, Nero, and Roxio.
They have stated that they will get it into their products sooner rather than later.

My information was based on this comment, referenced in the other thread:
"In late March Sonic announced that it had expanded its HyperMUX DVD formatting technology with algorithms designed to support DVD+R DL. With Sonic advanced technology group general manager Jim Taylor calling DVD+R DL "a major breakthrough in recordable media for DVD creation," Sonic said its new HyperMUX-DL engine would be integrated at all levels of its software line"

ReelDVD not included? Ya got me, I will take your word for it.

It is easy to be satisfied with DVDA2, it is a great product.
Disclaimer: I don't use DVDA to burn discs - I use Nero.

As I said in the other thread, this debate is a non-starter(IMO).
But once again - I will happily meet you back here in a several months and we can see where the market is in comparison to our statements about where we think it will be. (as I said in the other thread, not later than April 2005 - giving the drives one year on the market)

Chris

At the product seminar just held today in Denver, they said support for the dual layer burners would be added to DVDA. They had just received a dual layer burner to start working with.

It wasn't clear (at least to me) whether this support was going to be added as a maintenance release or as a new version of DVDA (I don't think they've thought that far out yet).

--Scott

Like I said before, dual layer support and dual layer dvd video are two different things. I realize that Nero, RecordNow, etc will support dual layer media--that doesn't mean they will make layer breaks for dvd video. I have created DVD-9 discs, so I know what it takes to make one. DVD Studio Pro has 'supported' DL disc creation since version 1.0, but it won't be until the launch of 3.0 that most of the bugs will be ironed out. I will applaud any app that right of the blocks can do it without a hitch--but I'm not holding my breath. Ulead, Encore, DVD Studio Pro, and the like already support DVD-9 via DLT. Maybe DVD-A should start there, before jumping into recordable DL. Pinnacle has a burning app as well, and I bet they will support dual layer media. They have a single, stand alone authoring app (which I own), and I can tell you that it will never support DL (Impression Pro is on it's last legs).

I got my info regarding Sonic on their website. If you go there, they have a link for Press releases. When you look at the specific info regarding this topic, ReelDVD and Mac apps are not included.

I think it's a pretty long time for a 'patch' to take a year to come out to support DL with DVD-A. Instead of betting on April, how about betting that it will come out only as a new release of DVD-A and not as a 'patch'. NAB 2005 will have come and gone if we're going to use April 2005.

I do agree with you on one thing however, it's a non-starter. Like I posted before, for most of what I do I don't need to be burning DL dvd video. The added space for data storage would be nice...

Jim

Thanks Scott - I am surprised that they are that they are just getting a drive...
JSWTS - perhaps that's where you've got me...

I was giving it 1 year at the latest, we can check in every month if you feel a need.

IMO my predictions will come to pass long before then -
that is that I can burn my DVDA projects to DVD9 for little to no cost within a year - likely much less than a year (Using DVDA, or a third party app)
As I have stated elsewhere, Pinnacle has stated in the media, and on their support site that they will include Dual Layer in Studio, Edition, and all of their line.

JSWTS said
"It's going to take more than a third party burning app like Nero to burn dual layer discs. Although you might be able to create a project that exceeds the DVD-5 disc size, you can't define a layer break within DVDA-2, which is critical to creating a DL disc. Unless these third party burning apps are going to allow you to create such a layer break, you aren't going to be able to create a disc that will play on a set top player. You might be able to create a disc that a computer will read and play, but not a set top player."

I believe that to be false, and we can check back as often as you would like to determine where it sits (have they opened the box with their DL drive yet may be the first issue!)

I understand the issue of layer breaks - and many of these software applications will be making the layer break decision - some with, and some without the ability of the author to determine where that break is.
That may not be to your liking, but it will be Dual Layer, and I think it will be relatively soon.

It will be an interesting debate :)
Chris

Chris,

I like optimists. Before next years NAB, according to your accounts, we should have dual layer on everything that Sonic, Pinnacle, and Sony offers. That'll be great since I own one or more apps from all three (MyDVD, DVDit, ReelDVD, Impression Pro, Instant Copy, DVD-A). I should be in nirvana--or at least have my bases covered.

Sony should have a leg up on everyone since they will have one of the first DL burners out:

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=tC8yUpMqsKEyHdO3UcM4Wdw7zUyE51MFSMg=?CategoryName=cpu_Sony_PCAccessories_CD%2fDVDBurn_DVDBurners&ProductSKU=DRU700A&Dept=cpu

;)

Jim

Everything?
You've already 'proven' that ReelDVD will not support Dual Layer
But I really could care less about ReelDVD - you'll have to take that up with someone who does.

One year is a fast track for support of new technology products, as you said this it won't be as simple as you describe
I'm not sure why you have a problem with one year, but like I said I'll give you less.

I thought you were arleady in nirvana when you said Time will tell, but for now I'm satisfied with the current limitations.

I will have the abiltiy to do what I need for little additional cost, and that is my prediction - using DVDA OR ANY, (not ALL) other low-cost product(s) to get my DVDA project on DL - and my prediction is fullfilled.
Your prediction was that it will not happen because the layer break it just too demanding for it happen.
You stated that DVDA support for Dual layer was a 'maybe'.
(I said DVDA will eventually support it (I hope version 2)', you said 'maybe' -
I said other applications will allow me to burn larger DVDA projects - you said 'doubt it' and I highly doubt that a third party burning app will be able to do this

According to my statements if I can do either within one year, my case is proven.

I own Edition, Studio, Nero, RecordNow, and MyDVD - all products that I expect will allow me to do dual layer very soon indeed.

1 year IS very soon, for a new technology, but I'll be doing it sooner than that - If I choose to.
Like I stated a couple of weeks ago, I'm not in a hurry to do this - I will have that ability, if I choose to do so.

As was discussed in the other thread, Sony does not just have a drive at stake here, they are a principle in the DL initiative, the drive came after that involvement.

Sure, I like to be optimistic.
Should these predictions go down in flames, I will still be able to produce a DVD9 edited with Vegas, and authored with a variety of <$99 applications - or perhaps I'll just use one that I already own, or the application that comes bundled with my drive.... Optimisim - is great feeling!

Chris

Chris,

You're the one that said it will be in all of Sonic's and Pinnacle's product lines. I'm just happy to find that out from an insider.

I am content with what I have, but will be in nirvana when all these apps will 'magically delicious' support DL dvd video.

If the 'bet' was that Sony and DVD-A will have this by next year's NAB--well, I would agree. If the bet is that another app will support it sometime soon--well I agree as well. I am certain that once the burners ship, some authoring app with dual layer video support (like MyDVD) will be bundled along with a third party burning app like Nero. If the bet is that DVD-A will offer it with a 'patch' because it is so simple to implement-- then the bet is on.

In my mind, a year to implement changes in the computer/software world can be an eternity (and I emphasize the word 'can'). If you snooze you loose. DVD-A2 is a good second step, but it could be so much more (and I don't mean dual layer support).

Jim

Did I say I would use them all? I don't believe that I did - if you feel that is relevant to Sony getting this into DVDA, then that is your option.

I feel that the stated direction of these companies is relevant.
I brought them into this because you stated:
It's going to take more than a third party burning app like Nero to burn dual layer discs.... You might be able to create a disc that a computer will read and play, but not a set top player.

I guess that because I said that their intended direction was for support in ALL of their products - that is the only thing you have to hang your hat on. Enjoy. I admit error in stating that Sonic would support it in all of their products - per your contention that they will not - but I'm not even going to verify it - not worth my time.

I gave examples of industry momentum in my favor.
I guess ReelDVD is your evidence to the contrary? (I think that any $600 authoring app that does not support DL is in trouble, but I won't go there)
ReelDVD is respected in the industry, but it has no use to me, and many others who will use DL.

DL will happen to all products that matter, and in a time frame not necessarily in keeping with what you see as 'reasonable'.
I've been doing hardware and software for quite a few years, and I too know what is a reasonable time, and the other players in the DL authoring game appear to know it too, perhaps Sony does not.
Perhaps my faith in Sony is unfounded...

Read into it what you want - I stated the companies published directions.
I guess you have your own inside information - I got this information from public sources, which I have identified.

I'm not sure where you stand. Your statement here, and the one you made a couple of weeks ago seem to be contradictory.
Two weeks ago you said (in reference to DL)
DVDA2 - maybe
TPA - you highly doubt it.
Remember, this all started when you said that I would not be able to use a third party app (TPA) with my 6GB DVDA project.
My statement was for one or the other, with DVDA being hoped for, and TPA being for sure. (And I admit that it is a strong hope, and a belief that it will happen).
Today you say TPA's will support 'it', but DVDA2 will not?
Please enlighten me further as to what the meaning of 'it' 'is'.

What started this debate? -
Your contention that TPA's would be unable to burn my large DVDA2 projects.
I highly doubt that a third party burning app will be able to do this

As soon as I can take my large DVDA project and use a burning application of my choice to put it on dual layer - OR DVDA2 supports it, the deal is done.

You said that was not going to happen, and you may be very right - time will tell. If that is the case I currently have other options that will. I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.
If you are right, then Sony is wrong as a company - many of their competitors are doing it in 'patch' releases.

As for DVDA2 not supporting it - as I said, I HOPE it does, I still do.

I have at least 3 other applications that ARE delivering it soon with a 'patch' because it is so simple to implement so yes if Sony snooze's, they loose.

So if you see it only as DVDA2, and not TPA, then you have already retracted your original statement that started this.

I'll update my status back in the forum in late June (about a month).
Or perhaps 1 month after Sony actually starts shipping the drive in bulk (AFAIK, June)
This dialogue is pointless, and not worth my time.

Complaining about April 2005? Yah, I agreed to NAB 2005, to stop the noise, but drives and media will not be widely available until Q4 2004- not much of a window. I think that April 2005 is a very reasonable time frame, if not overly optimistic - you call it what you want.

As I have stated before, I'll be waiting to make that choice after I have a good feel for DL-R, I'm not in a hurry - the question is can I if I choose to do so?
I will have everything I need for Dual Layer. If I am right or wrong - but I won't argue against your right to keep using SL authoring apps and SL drives because you are satisfied with the current limitations

Chris.

Edit added, after Jims reply, because I have no intention of hurling this back and forth. Jim - anger? Hardly, you have the stroke, I already let it go, and said so. Anger, no! - I love a good, civil debate - If I have been uncivilized to you - then I appologize.
ROTFL at the ridiculousness of this. BTW TPA is an IT TLA, not mine.

Thanks for (re)stating your view without vagueness - it is now clear.
Speculation - yes I would agree that I have speculated. I guess I've misunderstood your take, because to me it all seems stated as fact, without the possibility of error.

I have said it many times - I may be wrong. If I am, I will admit it, and move on to products that suit my needs - which may or may not include DL at the time.
It is all black and white now, nothing left to contend with except time...
Thanks for enlightening me to another point of view - sure hope it is the wrong point though... ;)

Edit 5/24/04
I sent this text to Ahead Software - the makers of NERO.
I have Nero 5.5, and Nero 6 OEM - not the full, deluxe package.

This was their reply
Nero is able to do both things you want it to (if I understood your question right). But you should get the full version of Nero.

It may be here now - May of 2004, but I'm still waiting for further verification. You can't believe everything you read from the vendor.

Edit 6/18/04 - Nero, 6 Ultra purchased for $20, Nero 6 Suite 3 (all video tools) purchased for $10 - shipped
(I have many computers, need many licences).
NEC 2510 (DL) available for $86. Plan to purchase in August.
Media still not widely available - as indicated above.
Here it is June, and according to Nero - I already have a software solution that works - one that Jim said 'he highly doubted' that would happen at all.
Jim said It's going to take more than a third party burning app like Nero to burn dual layer discs. Although you might be able to create a project that exceeds the DVD-5 disc size, you can't define a layer break within DVDA-2, which is critical to creating a DL disc. Unless these third party burning apps are going to allow you to create such a layer break, you aren't going to be able to create a disc that will play on a set top player. You might be able to create a disc that a computer will read and play, but not a set top player.
NERO Said that theirs does...

Time will tell.

Chris