DVD Workshop and Vegas AVIs

PeterMac wrote on 4/28/2002, 8:17 AM

Can anyone tell me if a resolution was ever found to the problem of Ulead's DVD Workshop being unable to use AVIs captured (or rendered) by Vegas? On my PAL system all I see are multi-coloured mosaics where the chapter point thumbnails should be. What's more, if I let DVD Workshop render the AVIs to MPEGS (for DVD), the whole MPEG2 file is one big mosaic!
This doesn't happen if I use Scenalyzer or DVD Workshop itself to do the capturing, although this fact is of limited use because I still have to do some editing <g> However, it does show that the format used by Vegas is non-standard in some way - at least as far as DVD Workshop is concerned.
In practice this isn't a big obstacle because I would normally import MPEGS, not AVIs, into DVD Workshop, and fortunately it recognises all MPEGS, including those rendered from the Vegas timeline.
I believe I saw some note a while ago to the effect that SoFo was conferring with Ulead to see what could be done, and I wondered if anything had?

-Pete

Comments

doormill wrote on 4/28/2002, 6:46 PM

Can't be of much help except to say I use DVD workshop with VV3 rendered Mpeg instead of AVI files. It does a better job than DVD workshop as far as encoding the avi file to mpeg. I would say it's close in quality to TMPEgenc. Have you tried that instead? It has to be encoded anyway right?

Have a good day!

PeterMac wrote on 4/29/2002, 3:28 AM

Yes I have tried the MainConcept (Vegas) encoder, and very good it is too. In real world conditions, I think it may be the best you can currently get your hands on, provided you crank up the bitrate beyond the supplied defaults.

I must confess I had a hidden agenda in asking my question. I'd always understood that when capturing from the camera, no changes were made by the capturing software. In other words, whatever compression was required was done 'in camera' and the capturing software was simply copying from the camera to the hard drive with no proprietary CODECs being required. It was only when changes were made such as editing, transitions, etc. that rendering became necessary and the editor's own CODEC brought into play.

It seems I was wrong. From my tests, Vegas is writing a different AVI; why else would programs have difficulties with Vegas captured footage and not with, say, Scenalyzer captured footage from precisely the same tape?

Can anyone confirm this, or explain where I'm missing something?

-Pete

PS Do you see the mosaic effect I describe if you use AVIs in Workshop?

BobMoyer wrote on 4/29/2002, 5:47 AM

Pete,

I use Win98SE and find that when I 'right-click' a VV3 .avi file in "Explorer" and then choose 'properties', I get the same mosaic when I click on the preview tab. I had mentioned this as a new-user right after I installed the program but got no answer except that it was due to a conflict with other codecs/rendering programs on my system. They suggested that I reformat/reinstall everything except other rendering stuff - specifically anything from MGI. I just decided to live with it.

Bob

PeterMac wrote on 4/29/2002, 10:42 AM

I use W2K Pro (SP2) and the phenomenon you describe doesn't appear. I can play Vegas AVIs very well in Windows Explorer!

Actually, I've seen something like it before. If you try and encode a Vegas AVI using the Ligos LSX MPEG encoder, you get exactly the same thing. (And again, AVIs captured by other utilities such as Scenalyzer are fine).

So either Vegas's AVIs are non standard, or DVD Workshop and Ligos LSX share some common libraries, which are allergic to Vegas AVIs for whatever reason.

(I'd appreciate a word from the Vegas whizzos here...?)

-Pete

SonyEPM wrote on 4/29/2002, 11:27 AM

In Win2k I can load Vegas-captured or Vegas-rendered PAL and NTSC .avis into DVD workshop 1.0, no prob. Preview is fine everywhere I look, burned DVD is fine.

Premiere and AE can also open and use Vegas .avis without problems. I'm guessing that it is an alien DV codec causing the problem, but if you can post more info I can dig a little more.

PeterMac wrote on 4/29/2002, 12:34 PM

Dave

I'm uploading a small AVI to your server (using the location you sent to me previously - email me if you've forgotten it <g>).
Would you try this PAL file on your DVD Workshop and see what happens?
Remember, the fault complained of is the inability to form thumbnails, which turn into mosaics. The actual footage previews fine, although the menus are of course meaningless.

-Pete

SonyEPM wrote on 4/29/2002, 1:58 PM

I have opened the file you uploaded in Vegas, Afterfx 5.5, Premiere 6.1, and DVD workshop (downloaded fresh 4/29/02). No issues in any of these apps, perfect thumbnails and renders in DVDW. Anything else you could offer to help us repro would be apprecieated.

PeterMac wrote on 4/29/2002, 3:17 PM

Extraordinary!

I don't suppose you have a copy of the Ligos LSX MPEG Encoder 3.5 lying around, do you? That does the same thing - completely chomps the AVI into a continuous mosaic, but only with Vegas AVIs...

When I spoke to Ligos about the problem they said the cure was to install the MainConcept CODEC; it couldn't be that you also happen to have this CODEC on your test machine, could it? I gather the Vegas CODEC is not the same thing, although it may be MainConcept inspired.

We should perhaps list the CODECs that are present on each others machines - 'cos there's a rabbit away somewhere! <g>

-Pete

I have (taken from the MultiMedia properties dialog):
Canopus DV Codec
Cinepak Codek by Radius Inc.
Huffyuv lossless codec (HFYU)
Indeo codec by Intel
Indeo video 5.10
mcdvd_32.dll
Microsoft RLE Codec
Microsoft Video 1
msh261.drv
msh263.drv
msyuv.dll
VFAPI Reader Codec v1.01

SonyEPM wrote on 4/29/2002, 3:35 PM

my machine:

Canopus DV codec
ICCVID (Cinepak)
Indeo 5.10
IR32-32.dll (Indeo 3.2)
Microsoft MPEG-4 v3
MSH261
msh263
msrle32
msvidc32
msyuv

Main Concept DV is not on my machine.

PeterMac wrote on 4/29/2002, 4:00 PM

By elimination, you have:
Microsoft MPEG-4 v3 (an unlikely culprit)
msvidc32 (don't know what this is)

I have:
Huffyuv lossless codec (HFYU)
mcdvd_32.dll
Microsoft Video 1
VFAPI Reader Codec v1.01

Of these, I fancy my Microsoft Video 1 is the villain (unless it's the same as your msvidc32 !!)

Or are we barking up the wrong tree? The footage plays, it's just the thumbnail that's wrong. What does it use to create a thumbnail do you reckon?

I'm lost!

-Pete

jeffy82 wrote on 4/30/2002, 4:31 AM

I think I have come across similar problems, but I wanted to clarify what you meant by Mosaic. Do you mean the type of effect you get when you reduce your display colors to 256? -- Color Banding? If so, I hate to say it, but I believe huffy may play a part in this problem.

In my case, at first it seemed eratic, because the problem was application specific. (ie same video plays fine in Media player, but mosaic in Virtual Dub.) This, was later explained as vfw vs DirectShow, as a method of displaying the video.

In the mean time, you may try capturing video VV with the Microsoft DV codec -- (this can be forced in the options) Scenalyzer, premiere, etc. all use the inferior Microsoft DV Codec. I'm curious to see if the problem still occurs. It would narrow down the possibilities.

Just a suggestion.
Jeffy82@aol.com

PeterMac wrote on 4/30/2002, 8:39 AM

I'm sure that forcing a different CODEC will do the trick, but I'd rather not if the Vegas one is apparently so superior. And I'm still mystified why a CODEC is used at all - even the author of Scenalyzer states (quoted from his FAQs):-

...
Q: Which codec does ScenalyzerLive use and how can I set the codec?
A: ScenalyzerLive doesn't need to use a codec for capturing or playback. It uses the MS-DV codec for displaying pictures in the program. Your editing-application will normally use the MS-DV codec for type1 files and the currently installed vfw DV codec for type2 files. If for example the mainconcept codec is installed on your system, then type2 DV files are "mainconcept codec files".
...

If that means what I think it means, capturing software is not 'rendering' in any way as it stores the AVIs. Yet Vegas AVIs on my machine somehow appear different to certain programs. (As you may have read earlier, when I sent a test avi to SoFo for examination, they couldn't reproduce my problem using the same programs!) Clearly, something on my machine is corrupt or considerably unwelcome <g>

Incidentally, a mosaic in this case is a matrix of multi-coloured squares, each square is as big as this 'o' on the screen.

-Pete

PS How do you get rid of Huffy? It's one of the very few CODECs that I have and SoFo doesn't.

SonyEPM wrote on 4/30/2002, 9:13 AM

Please confirm or deny:

1) The problem files have never in any way been touched by the Huffy codec.

2) These files were shot with a DV camera, were transferred to the computer over 1394.

PeterMac wrote on 4/30/2002, 9:34 AM

1. Confirmed.
2. Confirmed.

Dave, the files are not a problem per se. You have one which gives thumbnail migraines on my machine, but apparently works perfectly on yours. My machine is the problem. There is something on there that the "thumbnail creator" expects to find and doesn't. Like it's using someone else's [incompatible] codec to create them. It can play them back as movies without a hitch..

I've removed poor old Huffy anyway; doesn't make a jot of difference.

-Pete

jgourd wrote on 5/14/2002, 5:38 PM

I just got off the phone with ULEAD. They say that Vegas renders and captures DV Type 2 and DVD workshop only imports DV Type 1.

FadeToBlack wrote on 5/14/2002, 8:10 PM

SonyEPM wrote on 5/15/2002, 8:23 AM

Ulead said they couldn't open type 2? I have DVD Workshop on my machine and it can open both type1 and type2...hmmmm.

jgourd wrote on 5/15/2002, 8:30 AM

It does open them, but >4 gig files on NTFS load as 1.5 minute files. I have tried 2 30 gig VV3 DV renders and they both import as 1.5 minute clips.

jgourd wrote on 5/15/2002, 8:32 AM

Actually unchecking the Open DML will only make it so that the maximum length is 4 gig on NTFS.

I think the option of interleaving every frame may be what does it. I'll try it in a few hours when my 20 hour MPEG-2 render finishes.

BillyBoy wrote on 5/15/2002, 10:14 AM

I see a lot of people using DVD Workshop, (I tried a trial too) however in my opinion its little brother MovieFactory is not only more user friendly, it can handle things very easily and at $45 retail it is a steal. Instead of trying to work with DVD AVI, try using the MC MPEG-2 DVD codec. While about as slow to render as a AVI, the file size is much smaller and quality does not really suffer. I just finished burning a DVD with this method that has multiple videos with extensive sub menues added, even custom audio just for the menu pages with total running time of about 76 minutes.

PeterMac wrote on 5/15/2002, 10:54 AM

I can confirm that unchecking OpenDML fixes it - on my machine. However, if I revert the same machine back to a basic Win2K Pro installation via an old DriveImage, and then install DVD Workshop, it handles either type of files with aplomb! No mosaics.

Even more curious, AVIs captured by ScenalyzerLive, which also uses OpenDML AND writes Type 2 AVIs, do not exhibit this interesting feature :)

What is going on? I think we should be told <g>

-Pete

doormill wrote on 5/15/2002, 4:21 PM

I use DVD Workshop and IMHO you should render the files as MPEG with either VV3 or TMPEGEnc instead of letting DVD Workshop do it. I think the quality is better. I can however use .avi files from VV3 in DVD Workshop without any problems. Also unlike BillyBoy, I had a lot more problems with VideoFactory and none with DVD workshop.

Have a great Day!