DVDA-2: Button/Text highlight spill (bleed) outside frame/text area

mike_2004z wrote on 5/19/2004, 9:58 PM

Hi,

I did a sample menu with DVDA-2 that contains some simple button/text for chapters selection. But final output to harddrive/dvd some of the button/text chapter hightlight is spill (bleed) outside of the button frame area when selected (this also the same with the text - sort like a shadow). Is this a bug? and how to get around this because this is a real show stopper for me.

Never happen with version 1.0

Thanks


Comments

SonySDB wrote on 5/20/2004, 5:11 AM
Is your project video format set to something other than 720x480 or 720x576? If not, that's probably the cause: there are inconsistencies with how DVD players handle highlights for other resolutions.

This is commented on in the troubleshooting section of the help.
mike_2004z wrote on 5/20/2004, 3:37 PM

SonySDB,

Thanks for the response. Yes, I was working with a half D1 (352x480) project (I haven't try full D1 yet). Any way, this is definitely a BUG and hopefully will be squashed in the future patch release.

Also, it would be great if we have the chapter menu chapter thumbnail button back on the time-line (like DVDA-1). The current method of copy and paste the time of the video frame from the time-line is user-unfriendly at best.


farss wrote on 5/23/2004, 5:12 AM
I've had the same problem until I realised I was using PAL 704x576!
Didn't see it until I tried playing the DVD using PowerDVD. From what SonySDB is saying though this isn't a bug in DVDA.
mike_2004z wrote on 1/22/2005, 4:34 PM
Ok,

Apparently, DVDA-2 still unable to make proper menus using NTSC 352x480 project template. The hight-lighted select text/object is way out of the actual text/object - pretty messy menu.

Is this a BUG? If it is not then please tell me how to make "good" menu for my captured video from VHS (using 352x480 resolution).

bStro wrote on 1/22/2005, 5:14 PM
Is this a BUG? If it is not then please tell me how to make "good" menu for my captured video from VHS (using 352x480 resolution).

I think it was made pretty clear above that this is a DVD player issue. Your menu is as "good" as it's going to get, whether you use DVDA or some other DVD authoring app. You simply need a DVD player that doesn't display it incorrectly.

Edit: The other solution would be, I imagine, to set your project to 720x480, but change the setting for each of your VHS captures to 352x480. There's nothing that says your menus have to use the same resolution as your video clips.

Rob
mike_2004z wrote on 1/23/2005, 8:45 PM

Hi,

No, it's not DVD player issue. I tried on WinDVD, PowerDVD on the PC prior burning to the acture DVD disc. So how can this be dvd player issue ?

If you don't believe me then try a small simple project in DVD Architect 2 using NTSC 352x480 project template. Make a simple menu chapter select screen with simple text highlight select items. Finalize your DVD and check to see (you won't see it in the design stage - but only when output to final dvd). Use WinDVD or Power DVD or burn to the DVD disc to view and to verify.

I am the only person that noticed this "un-documented feature" (not BUG) or what. I tried to work around this by capture VHS in Full D1 resolution and use 720x480 project template for my DVD menu so far. But this is a waste of bitrate and resolution for working with VHS quality.

Other day I was thinking - uhhmmm, it's been nearly a year now since my first post about this issue - and there already patches for DVDA2 so let test Half-D1 project template for menu and see. Guess what, still messed up menus.

ScottW wrote on 1/24/2005, 8:53 AM
Did you formally report this proiblem to Sony using one of the formal support mechanisms? If you didn't, then don't expect the problem to get fixed. Click on the support link at the top of the page and make a formal bug report.
bStro wrote on 1/24/2005, 10:38 AM
So how can this be dvd player issue ?

As stated previously, the manner in which 352x480 menus are handled among different players is inconsistent. Not surprising, really, since DVD player manufacturers (and DVD player software writers, as well) probably aren't that concerned about being compatible with such DVDs. The average consumer's DVDs are in 720x480, so anything else is going to fall way under the manufacturers' radars.

If you don't believe me then try a small simple project in DVD Architect 2 using NTSC 352x480 project template.

I didn't doubt what you're seeing. I'm well aware of what happens. The trouble is, you seem to think it's a bug in DVDA that can be fixed. It's not. If different players interpret 352x480 menus differently, how is Sony supposed to make the highlights appear the same way on all players?

I tried to work around this by capture VHS in Full D1 resolution and use 720x480 project template for my DVD menu so far. But this is a waste of bitrate and resolution for working with VHS quality.

But that's also not the suggestion I made. I said leave your videos at 352x480 and set your menus at 720x480. You don't have to set the whole project to 720x480, just the menus. Again, you don't have to use the same resolution throughout the whole project.

Have you used another DVD auhthoring app that acts exactly how you expect in ths manner, one in which you can produce a 352x480 menu that highlights properly in the same DVD player apps? If so, mention the name and version of that software when you send a formal report to Sony. If it can be corrected, perhaps that info will be helpful to them in doing so.

Rob
mike_2004z wrote on 1/24/2005, 11:40 AM

Rob,

Thanks for the response and few constructive suggestions. I'm not argue with you over this but only I'm just curious about this abnormal behaviour of DVDA-2.

You know what, I tried all of DVDA-2 NTSC project template and here are the result (version 2b):

1) NTSC 704x480 == BAD
2) NTSC 720x480 == GOOD
3) NTSC 352x480 == BAD
4) NTSC 352x240 == BAD
5) NTSC WS 720x480 == GOOD
6) NTSC WS 704x480 == BAD

I havn't try PAL but it's not important for me since I'm in NTSC land.

So basically DVDA-2 only create "good" menu with only 720x480 project template (standard & WS). So what is the point of offering other templates if we can't create menu properly ? Again, is this a FEATURE or BUG ?
By the way, Full D1 & Half D1 are within DVD specifications so any DVD players should at least support these 2 formats properly. So again, I don't see the valid point of "because of the player" ??? So, WinDVD & PowerDVD don't follow the DVD specs to play DVD, not to mention all the stand-alone DVD player ??

----------------------------------------------------
For those who want to re-create the problem (shouldn't take more than 2 minutes):

Step:

1) In DVDA-2 -> select "menu base" -> select one of the "bad" template mention above for you video project.

2) Insert a few buttons on the page (you don't need a video file at all) - try to put few button near the right side of the screen (left to right -> get worst).

3) Highlight for those button: your choice but select Image Rectagle or Image Mask Overlay for best result.

4) The "Preview" option in DVDA-2 will not show the problem. But instead select "MAKE DVD" to a temporary location on your hard-drive.

5) Ignore warning of "button missing link" and continue with the "Make DVD"

6) Use your favour DVD player (PC) or burn to a dvd disc to view the menu page with bad buttons hightlight.

The whole process should take less than 2 minutes.

mike_2004z wrote on 1/24/2005, 12:55 PM

>Did you formally report this proiblem to Sony using one of the formal support mechanisms? If you didn't, then don't expect the problem to get fixed. Click on the support link at the top of the page and make a formal bug report.

Ok,

Isn't this problem so obvious that people/Sony don't even noticed it. Seriously, hasn't SONY at least test DVDA-2 menu(s) using other project templates beside 720x480 (for NTSC). This also bring another issue regarding QC of Sony's product.


ScottW wrote on 1/24/2005, 2:24 PM
At the risk of further inflaming the subject.....

I created a 720x480 project with a button and then examined the VOB, specifically the navigation pack which contains the information on where the mask is supposed to be positioned.

The starting X was 470 and the starting Y was 177; mask was fine when viewed with software player.

I then changed the DVDA project settings to be 352 x 480 - no other changes were made. I then prepared into a different directory and examined the resulting VOB file - guess what, the starting X was 470 and the starting Y was 177. Mask was offset when viewed with my software player.

I also played with this some in DVD Lab Pro, which got very upset when I tried to change to half-D1 for the menu and strongly suggested that I shouldn't do this - leave the menu alone at 720-480 it said and just include the half-d1 movies.

No doubt the reason things get worse as you move to the right of the screen is because this is a cumulative error (352 is not an even division of 720) and the origin is in the upper left hand corner of the display.

Since the mask is always positioned assuming a standard NTSC or PAL screen size, this is clearly an issue with the players (both hard and soft).

--Scott
ScottW wrote on 1/24/2005, 2:56 PM
See my other post on my testing; DVDA is doing everything correctly based on an examination of the VOB file. It's the players that are at fault, so I guess you don't have a bug to report.
--Scott
mike_2004z wrote on 1/24/2005, 4:25 PM

> Since the mask is always positioned assuming a standard NTSC or PAL screen size, this is clearly an issue with the players (both hard and soft).
> --Scott

>See my other post on my testing; DVDA is doing everything correctly based on an examination of the VOB file. It's the players that are at fault, so I guess you don't have a bug to report.

Ok,

Reasonable enough. Ok then which software DVD player(s) and/or hardware Dvd player is NOT at fault then? I would like to test them.




ScottW wrote on 1/24/2005, 6:00 PM
I'm beginning to get the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. Why in the world would I have any clue as to what players correctly handle the conversion?

Why not simply take Rob's suggestion (which was also the suggestion of DVD Lab Pro) - set your project properties to a standard size and simply include your half-d1 movies as they are - don't mess with having a menu in half-d1 as well.
bStro wrote on 1/24/2005, 7:16 PM
So basically DVDA-2 only create "good" menu with only 720x480 project template (standard & WS). So what is the point of offering other templates if we can't create menu properly ? Again, is this a FEATURE or BUG ?

<runs off screaming into the night>

Fine, you're right. It's completely DVDA's fault, and this problem would never happen with any other DVD authoring app (not that you're going to try one). And there's no possible way to work around it (certainly not the one I've suggested to you twice already) other than come here and belittle Sony. Good job, you win. :)

Rob

bStro wrote on 1/24/2005, 7:19 PM
Silly Scott. Why worry yourself with research and facts when conjecture and accusations will do just fine?

Rob
mike_2004z wrote on 1/24/2005, 10:08 PM


Cheer,

I am here not to argue just for the sake of arguing. But instead
to examine the FACT and to find an answer to HOW and WHY DVDA-2 behaved like such.
DVDA-2 is just simply a computer program and programmed by human, so as you know,
whatever human create, there is always a chance of error (or bug). It is pretty
naive to assume that a program does not contain bug(s) eventhough it works perfectly
for you. If the program will NOT generated an expected result then it is safe to
assume that there is an error/bug/flaw some where that need to be further examine.
If the problem can easily re-created repeately then it is an obvious that something
is wrong there. We can not simply turned a blind eyes and assume that something else
is happened - especially the program that we like and use daily so that there would be
a proper fix and to make it even better.


I already provided the fact and the way to re-create the problem for you to see with
your own eyes. You can not denied the fact infront of you (or can you?).


Thanks to Rob and Scott to provide me the 2 other "facts" which allow me to
revield 2 "flaws" (I'm not using the word BUG here) within DVDA-2.


THE FIRST FLAW (programming flaw):
-----------------------------------
Based on Scott analysis (his analysis make good sense until I read the last line). I was
ROTFL because he just simply threw all his reasoning out the window with the very last
line:

>I then changed the DVDA project settings to be 352 x 480 - no other changes were made.
>I then prepared into a different directory and examined the resulting VOB file - guess
>what, the starting X was 470 and the starting Y was 177.
>Mask was offset when viewed with my software player.
>Since the mask is always positioned assuming a standard NTSC or PAL screen size
>this is clearly an issue with the players (both hard and soft).

It so obvious that DVDA-2 tries to do two different things at the same time here. It's
converse/or do whatever to the menu page(s) based on the user selected "project template".
But then, it calculates & saves the high-light mask coordinates based on 720x480
template. That's why the highlight is screwy with other templates beside 720x480. You
don't need a "degree" to figure this out. BTW, which software used to created those "masks" again ?? If this is not a "flaw" of DVDA-2 then: Please
do explain to me what's the heck DVDA-2 trying to do here !!!.


Now, the above reasoning further re-enforced by Rob & Scott again:

>I also played with this some in DVD Lab Pro, which got very upset when I
>tried to change to half-D1 for the menu and strongly suggested that I
>shouldn't do this - leave the menu alone at 720-480 it said and

>just include the half-d1 movies.

>Rob's suggestion (which was also the suggestion of DVD Lab Pro) - set your project

>properties to a standard size and simply include your half-d1 movies as they are -
>don't mess with having a menu in half-d1 as well.

This also the cased in Ulead DVDWorkShop version 1 & 2 - no matter what resolutions
of your video is, the menus alway remain at 720x480. I guess this is the case of
other authoring programs too (DvdLab Pro) and this is perfectly good method because
we really don't care if the menu is in 720x480 as long as our video is remained at
the orginal resolutions (provided that it is DVD compliance). But since DVDA-2 does
having problem with menu pages using "Sony's Predefined" project templates then it's
must did something screwy behind the scene. Again, this is not a BUG.


THE SECOND FLAW (logical):
--------------------------

DVDA-2 trying to be "smart" by offering the user quite a few "project templates".
But by doing so it shots itself in the foot and looks stupid. Why ???
Let say, I have an NTSC 352x480 Mpeg-2 file and want to create nice menus using
DVDA-2. Wow, just my luck, there is already a "NTSC 352x480 project template"
built in DVDA-2 already. Well, it's make sense right? Select the template based
on my video file - that's no brainer. But then who would guess that my beautiful
designed menu(s) for the DVD came out screwy at the end. Ok, who would guess that
in order for it to work, you have to select the OTHER template (720x480) and just
include your video. It's doesn't seem very logical and user friendly to me.


================================================================================

Ok, thank you for reading this far, now here I suggest 2 ways to fix this:

1) Offer the user different project template as right now. But, that is only
apply to the input video file (to make sure it match with the template). Always
render the menu pages at 720x480 for NTSC - this is a sure way to eliminate
this menu high-light problem. Well, other authoring programs mentioned above
using this method. DVDA-2 programmer(s) need to modify the menu rendering
routine to force it to 1 specification only - shouldn't be too hard.


2) Eliminate all those "project template" and only offer say: NTSC - Standard & NTSC
WideScreen. (same with PAL). Now DVDA-2 programmer(s) can keep the Menu rendering
routine as it is because it doesn't have problem render menus with "standard" 720x480
resolution. But on other hand, DVDA-2 need to be "smart" (hahahaha) to check the
input video file for DVD compliance resolution and bit-rate.


--------------------------------------------

That it's for me on this issue. For those who are open-minded and willing to accept
that nothing is perfect then hopefully you will see my reasoning. CHEER !!!