DVDlab & MS3 Optimum File Formats

GizmoGorilla wrote on 3/1/2004, 4:49 AM

I've spent the weekend exploring (still) ms3 & dvdlab but wonder if I can get clarification on a couple things. I know dvdlab works with elemental streams. When I tried to create seperate mpeg and audio files in MS3 it wasnt obvious that it did the audio. The dialog only showed a filename for the video. Did I miss something there? Can I create elemental streams for both video/audio to go directly into DVDlab? Would it not be better to create an AVI and do the conversion with tmpgenc. This has the bonus of being able to control bitrate which doesnt seem to be an option in ms3. This leads to my next question. Is there a quality difference in the mpeg generated by ms3 over tmpgenc. I keep reading that tmpgenc generates the "best" quality mpegs. I also did some exploring with both tmpgencPLUS and tmpgencSourceCreator. Generating the same files from the same project to go into dvdlab gave different results. Using the source creator I had no problem bringing them into dvdlab but, using tmpgencPus dvdlab complained saying the file was "not a 11172-2 or13818-2 video stream" I tried to fix the stream header as dvdlab suggested but it couldnt seem to read the header. Can someone explain why this would happen. As it is now I would think the best route for files/formats would be...

DV-> ms3-> AVI-> tmpgSourcCreator-> Elemental streams-> dvdlab->DVD

Would this be optimum or am I off track here.
I have purchased DVDlab and wonder still if I should get a variant of tmpgenc[?]

Norm
aka Gizmo Gorilla

PS: MS3 & DVDlab are rock solid, did NOT crash even once! No regrets moving from S8

Comments

IanG wrote on 3/1/2004, 7:09 AM

I've tried outputting separate streams from VF2, but it doesn't work. Now, I just produce the MPEG2 from VF and let DVDLab demux it during the import.

Mainconcept and TMPGenc both have their fans, but I don't believe there's a clear winner - I wouldn't spend any more money on an encoder that's going to give a marginal improvement at best.

The "not a 11172-2 or13818-2 video stream" error would suggest you've got a non-standard or corrupt MPEG. If it was a consistent error I'd guess there's a problem with your TMPGenc settings - being able to change these things is a mixed blessing :-)

Ian G.

GizmoGorilla wrote on 3/1/2004, 7:25 AM

Is it safe to assume that dvdlab demuxing the mpeg has no affect on quality of either the video or the audio? Were just spliting the streams right?

Norm

"No furniture or dishware was damaged in solving of this problem"

IanG wrote on 3/1/2004, 9:07 AM

I haven't noticed any problems at all with the quality - the only concerns are that it takes a bit longer and you're using more diskspace until you delete the source mpeg. Neither of them causes me any problems!

Ian G.

GizmoGorilla wrote on 3/1/2004, 11:22 AM

What about ms3 saving as elemental streams. The save dialog only seemed to have provision for a video file name. Did I miss something there or is there a problem in this area?

TIA

Norm

csantelman wrote on 3/3/2004, 2:34 PM

I've found a process that achieves great results using DVDLab & MS3.

After I've completed a project in MS3, I first export the audio into a wave file using the write to disk, advanced, wav option.

Then I render out to a mpeg-2 file using MS3.

Now I take the wave file and convert it to a dolby digital ac3 stream, check out this thread from the dvd-lab message board.

http://www.mmbforums.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=4198#25451

Now when I pull the mpeg file into dvd-lab, I allow it to de-mux the file into it's audio/video stream, pull the video into the movie container, and then pull the ac3 file in, instead of the demuxed audio portion.

This way, I get dolby digital (2-channel) which works in my dvd player as a "bitstream" audio stream, not PCM audio. So I don't have to fiddle with the settings to watch a DVD I make.

IanG wrote on 3/4/2004, 5:28 AM

Can the TMPGEnc plugin convert MP2 to AC3? Maybe you could skip a step in that workflow.

Ian G.

csantelman wrote on 3/4/2004, 7:41 AM

From what I can figure out - only the TPMG DVD Author has the ac3 plugin. You don't need to buy the whole TPMG DVD Author package, just the plug-in.

I know exporting to a wav takes extra time (8 minutes on my box) and then converting to ac3 takes another 8 minutes. But in my opinion, not having to fiddle with my DVD player every time is worth it.

GizmoGorilla wrote on 3/4/2004, 8:34 AM

You'll have to excuse me as this is all still very new. So let me understand...The whole point here is to get a dolby audio file, obviously better sound quality right. But were spending some money here by only buying the ac3 plug-in, as I understand from the link you provided. This would also imply your dvd player has dolby ability or do most of them have dolby. I have a cheapo player and dont recall seeing the dolby logo, (I could be wrong). How would this compare to say, pulling in the audio file into a 24bit audio editor and adding EQ, and things like verb, effects, etc., or are we talking apples/oranges here? Id like to fully understand this as I have lots of video with music to be transfered from vhs, and havent started just yet.
By the way why do you have to "fiddle" with the dvd player for the audio?

Norm
"I know very little about not too much"

csantelman wrote on 3/4/2004, 9:24 AM

I’ll see if I can explain this with enough detail & without confusing you/myself/anyone else…

First – all stand-alone DVD players support Dolby Digital (AC3) output, and most (even the cheap ones) will also support DTS output. I would check out your manual for the player to be sure though.

Second – In my case, converting from a wav file to an AC3 file doesn’t make it have better sound. All it is doing is changing the format the audio is in when it is written to the DVD. If you search back in this forum you will see people complaining about the bundled myDVD package – well one of the complaints is that when it authors a DVD, it uses un-compressed audio, which takes up a boatload of space. By converting to AC3 – I believe this is the most space efficient way to deliver audio to your DVD. All modifications to your audio (verb/effects/etc.) are done before you convert to the AC3 file.

So why did I do this…

Depending on your situation, it is possible to connect your DVD player into your TV multiple ways.

The first being the composite cables (red/white – analog audio, yellow – video) and connect these directly to your TV. If this is your setup, your fine using the de-muxed files in dvdLab.

The second is using the yellow component cable for the video, and then connecting a digital output to the surround amp in your home theater setup. This is what I do, and in my case I use the optical TOSLink cable. If you are using the digital coax cable, the same applies though.

When using digital output, you need to set your digital output mode on your DVD player. Choices usually are “bitstream” or “PCM”. In my case, when watching a commercialy produced DVD, in order to get the “Dolby Digital” to work with my amp, I needed to set the DVD player to “bitstream”.

Well, when I put in my first authored DVD – no sound! Took the DVD to another room where I don’t have the digital output used, only analog output, and the sound was there. So I went back to the first player, and changed the digital output to “PCM” and the sound worked then.

Since I didn’t want to go into my DVD player’s menu to switch it back and forth, I invested in the AC3 converter and my movies play with sound in both digital (bitstream) and analog environments.

GizmoGorilla wrote on 3/4/2004, 11:57 AM

Well that clears it up for me, although, I did pop a brain cell in the process :)
My situation is the simplest, I go from the dvd player to my amp, to my tv. (Do they still make amps :) ) Good to know this stuff as Im considering puchasing a home theater setup and would no doubt encouter this situation. Thanks for the info.

Norm
"I know very little about not too much"

IndyGuy wrote on 3/16/2004, 8:21 AM

You can render your video in MS3 as DVD compliant video only with no sound (since you have already created the wave file). That eliminates the need for DVD Lab to demux the mpeg-2 file.