DVDs for US consumption

farss wrote on 7/22/2003, 7:40 AM
I've sort of been down this path before but got some confusing signals so took the safest road. I'm producing DVDs for viewing in the US from PAL footage.

I've used VV to render out an AVI as NTSC and that works just beautifully. Although I have found rendering to NTSC AVI and them to NTSC MPEG2 work better than going straight from PAL to NTSC MPEG2, I'd have though I should get identical results with VV frameserving to MC encoder. Not a big issue really, just took a bit of testing.

Anyway my big issue is this time there's 90 mins of footage and I want to keep the bit rate as high as possible.

I was told that US DVD players will digest 24p NTSC and spit it out as 30i doing the pull down themselves. The only reason I'm considering this is for a given bit rate I can fit more onto the DVD at 24p than 30i.

Can any of my US brothers (or sisters) confirm that 24p NTSC DVDs are very likely to play OK in the DVD players over there?

Comments

RBartlett wrote on 7/22/2003, 7:52 AM
farss, so many "Hollywood" films are 24-progressive on DVD, that the only problem will come up with wonky firmware. If it can play 29.97 DVDR/RW then it will play 24p.

You should be able to test your NTSC 24p on your own standalone player - as PAL60 in many cases (the TV is ~usually~ the dictating factor)


_If_ your camera is progressive, then 25p->24p onto the DVD is the right way to go IMHO.
_If_ you are going 50i->24p, then you might want to decide to de-interlace (bob/weave or advanced-hybrid method) if you can suffer the reduced resolution this process detracts your footage to.

Pitch shifting as per the SoFo white paper guide etc.
mikkie wrote on 7/22/2003, 8:13 AM
"I was told that US DVD players will digest 24p NTSC and spit it out as 30i doing the pull down themselves. The only reason I'm considering this is for a given bit rate I can fit more onto the DVD at 24p than 30i."

As RBartlett wrote, not a problem, though if using VV4c the correct rate is 23.976. There should be 2 options, the one with pulldown simply inserts the flags to make the mpg2 more legal. Far as I can tell, not an issue except with some authoring software that refuses 23.976. VV4c *Might* cause better playback specifying which frames to double then the player itself, but in my experience this is dependant on the source video.

An interesting experiment would be to see if you can do your mpg2 at 25 as separate streams, then use restream to set the flag forcing 29.97 playback in the player. I've read of it being done, but haven't seen anything encoded that way to say whether the qual was up there. If it worked, changing the footage over to NTSC would simply involve cropping off the extra height pixels vs a PAL DVD & setting the flag.
farss wrote on 7/22/2003, 8:14 AM
RBartlett,
thanks SO much for that, I'll try some more experiments.

You've pretty much confirmed what SoFo had sort of told me some time ago but I was a bit worried about the progressive scan part of the equation, I thought only high end TVs would display progressive, unless the DVD player will interlace the output.

Unfortunately the footage is not of my making and of all things its been given to me on VHS so I'm not exactly off to a good start. Needless to say its PAL 25i.
Don't know why I fret so much about the quality of my contribution to the chain when others seem of the "if its got color and it moves its TV" mentality!
farss wrote on 7/22/2003, 8:23 AM
mikkie,
thanks I might try having a go at that as well.

DVDs are always such a drama, I've got this truly amazing DVD player that'll play anything, even raw MPEG1 or 2 off a DVD. Problem is its not a good benchmark for checking playability!
Main reason I bought it was it was all I could find with SCART RGB output to suit my TV, wonderful pictures now. I wonder just how many people never get to see just how good video can look. Makes me wonder why all the fuss over HD. Stuff I've shot on single CCD camera looks better than most stuff coming off analogue TV stations. Of course SD digital looks best of all.

I've also found most of the el cheapo units sold here will play anything whereas the brand name ones are much more neurotic.

mikkie wrote on 7/22/2003, 9:08 AM
"Don't know why I fret so much about the quality of my contribution to the chain when others seem of the "if its got color and it moves its TV" mentality! "

It's said that in the US, the majority of households have terribly misadjusted TVs, and are perfectly happy with them. Not sure we even require the color part - an obnoxious tint seems to do. But we're easy - if the stereo booms we're happy.

More on topic, the DVD player should insert the interlace as needed. Even the more expensive progressive players normally insert interlace for a std TV - most buyers just see Progressive next to a higher price tag and go Cool! Then wonder at the extra connectors on the back. Still not that many progressive TVs here, but at $2k (& up)versus $300 for a 31" - 32" conventional TV, not hard to figure that one out.

"I've also found most of the el cheapo units sold here will play anything whereas the brand name ones are much more neurotic."

Same all over I think... Apex is coming out with a set top recorder/player for ~$300 US, which one hopes will finally goad the brands into reality.
farss wrote on 7/22/2003, 9:23 AM
I'd say your comments on misadjusted TVs apply the world over.