EDL Export working and more good news.

farss wrote on 5/16/2007, 12:40 AM
So today we captured a Betacam SP tape from a J30.
Made a cut and exported an EDL using the script, all looks correct and previous tests showed it loads into an online system OK. There does seem to be the odd single frame error in the EDL compared to the Vegas T/L but that shouldn't be a major show stopper

Thanks to GlennChan to provoking me into going back and testing this. But there's more good news.

We'd captured this tape using the firewire port on the J30 so we knew we'd get correct timecode. Well thanks to the smarts in Vegas you don't really need all this expensive kit. If your VCR can output video with burnt in T/C you don't need a fancy A->D converter with a 422 interface or a LTC port, even a humble ADVC 100 would be good enough if you're going to an online suite down the track, here's why.

If you R Click the media in the Project Media you can define a new starting T/C for the clip. Just read off the burnt in T/C from the first frame of the clip and input that there. Presto, your clip now has correct T/C and this will be reflected in the EDL.

Now it'd be nice if we didn't have to do this offline / online dance but heck at least we can easily do it.

Bob.

Comments

filmy wrote on 5/16/2007, 5:22 AM
>>>f you R Click the media in the Project Media you can define a new starting T/C for the clip. Just read off the burnt in T/C from the first frame of the clip and input that there. Presto, your clip now has correct T/C and this will be reflected in the EDL<<<

Hmmm...interesting. So then now Vegas 7e does remember input TC? Cool.
farss wrote on 5/16/2007, 5:42 AM
Looks like the script simply reads the TC from the clip on the T/L, not from the project file.
Why didn't this work right before, all the data was there.

Bob.
ForumAdmin wrote on 5/16/2007, 6:35 AM
"Looks like the script simply reads the TC from the clip on the T/L, not from the project file. "

Correct, mostly. If you set custom timecode (which is a media property, not an event property), those custom values will flow through to a CMX EDL export (there is a canned script for exporting this flavor of EDL).

Doing a roughcut with burned in timecode (burned in by the deck at capture time) is IMO always a good idea. If your edl or AAF gets mangled somehow as if moves around, you can always refer back to the roughcut master and write the timecode down with a pencil.

Another good thing to do is to lay the roughcut down on the master and cut over the top of it- another sanity check.

Why go to a linear suite in the first place? What couldn't Vegas do that the linear suite could?
farss wrote on 5/16/2007, 7:03 AM
In the case of the guy I've been helping out it's partly political, partly technical.
On the technical side this is BetacamSP, on the political side the online Avid system is in a very expensive shiny new building....

And why are they shooting SP and not DB?
The cameras are cheaper to hire, never mind blowing a mint in post...
Of course the hope is that once the end client has burnt some serious dollars and seen the result is no better sanity will prevail.

Bob.
GlennChan wrote on 5/16/2007, 12:05 PM
EDLs are mostly used for non-linear online editing, because they work. For ingesting the video essence, most high-end systems do not support a lot of formats. The common denomination is moving material over SDI. So all your video essence goes in via SDI. Newer schemes like AAF would have an advantage if you could import data directly into the online system... but that's not happening (yet?; AAF also isn't as widely supported as EDL). AAF also lets you import effects... but you're going to re-create all the effects anyways. So EDLs are going to stick around because they work.

1a- A minor advantage of SDI is that the decks handle 3:2 pulldown insertion well... which helps in mixed projects. AFAIK, most NLEs right now don't have a workflow for adding pulldown with AAFs.

2- For TV series, some people are still using linear bays for packaging shows since it's faster than non-linear. WIth non-linear, you have to capture and print to tape (two step process). With linear, it's a one step process. For simple edits (sticking in bumpers and so forth) and simple end credits, non-linear is faster.



Told. You. So. :D :D :D ;) Nice meeting you at NAB btw Bob.
farss wrote on 5/16/2007, 3:03 PM
Only recently have I brushed against those who work with Agencies.

I'm now trying to understand how hemlines, Italian leather, self flushing toilets, imported beer and the name of my interior decorator affect image quality. Much to learn.

Bob.
GlennChan wrote on 5/16/2007, 7:44 PM
Perception and psychology plays a big role in how people perceive quality... just look at audio cables.
mark2929 wrote on 7/15/2007, 4:50 AM
Does this mean I can now get an edl to send back for a neg cut using Vegas?
mark2929 wrote on 7/15/2007, 7:10 AM
Does this mean I can now get an edl to send back for a neg cut using Vegas?

When I use script "To add timecode to all media" I can only get one kind of timecode 28 fps. If I use Plug in chooser I can get 25fps showing. However if I do this on its own then the timecode sets to zero on every new cut.

QUICK FIX?
If I set the script to add timecode to all media and then add timecode from plugin chooser and switch it to the left of the view pane I have two sets of timecode and the Plugin chooser seems correct?

Does this work accurately? for 25 fps?

Is this the best way to edit for and edl for a neg cut? Or is there a better way?
mark2929 wrote on 7/15/2007, 7:17 AM
When editing is finished you can

SCRIPT>"remove Timecode from all media"? And be left with just your 25fps timecode?
farss wrote on 7/15/2007, 7:20 AM
Last time I had neg matched it was to a work print, so the neg cutter was working off edge numbers. This was many decades ago so I'm hardly up with what happens these days. Even so I think it'd be a brave person who wasn't working with a transfer with burnt in edge numbers, I recall a post way back from Sony themselves recommending this. Also I think you need to ensure you're working with a 24p T/L or you'll have audio sync problems.

BTW, the EDL export does have the odd one frame error in it, for neg matching that could be a problem.

Bob.
mark2929 wrote on 7/15/2007, 9:50 AM
Hi Bob

You could get the key codes and time codes, lab roll, burnt into the telecine. Then you can line everything up?

The film would be done at 25fps using an arri BL 16mm camera

You say it could be a frame out. Is that a single frame for the whole EDL?
mark2929 wrote on 7/15/2007, 10:28 AM
Im getting mixed up here adding the EDL to the timeline means it changes when you move media. So adding Time code doesnt work so its back to scripting but that only offers 30fps even though the project settings are for 25fps I cant see a way out of this unless you edit with 30 fps footage?
mark2929 wrote on 7/15/2007, 10:34 AM
Unless there is a script out there for 25fps timecode?
farss wrote on 7/15/2007, 3:34 PM
You add the T/C FX to the media itself, in the media pool.

The 1 frame error is in the in/out points in the EDL.

Have you thought about using a DI ?
Prospect 2K from Cineform seems the way to go if you go down the DI route. Several post houses now offer transfers to Prospect 2K, WAY cheaper than HDCAM SR.

Bob.
mark2929 wrote on 7/16/2007, 6:06 AM
Would transferring all your rushes to a Digital Intermediate be costly? Say you had a film ratio of ten to one You would have 9 times more film done than neccesary? I didn't realise DI was so cheap now? AND you can edit a DI in Vegas. That sounds brilliant.
farss wrote on 7/16/2007, 7:07 AM
Well you're going to have to telecine the film to get it into anything. Now I have NO idea of the cost differences between a telecine to DV compared to a 2K film scan but about now would be a really good time for you to start talking to labs that do this. However from the little that I do know the cost of film scanning and the whole DI process is coming down. Pixel Harvest is one place in the USA that I know of that's offering to scan to Prospect 2K.

However Prospect 2K will not work with Vegas, Vegas's 8 bit pipeline is the limitation. You could however edit DV proxies in Vegas and matchback in AE. In the next few weeks / months I intend to try this workflow but not from film.

Having said all this, probably the best advice I can give you is twofold. You're about to embark on spending a LOT of money and major / very expensive / time wasting screwups are par for the course unless you tread very carefully if you've never done it before.

1) Talk to people who have done EXACTLY what you want to do.
2) Don't believe anything they say!
3) Because it means little until you've tested what they say yourself.

People forget to mention lots of things, things that they learnt a long time ago or just assume everyone knows. Just today I learnt how to change a PL mount cine lens, looks simple enough when you know how and frigging scary when you realise how easy it is to drop $10K worth of glass.
That's why I say you really need to go through careful testing before you start shooting and by testing I mean end to end.

Bob.
mark2929 wrote on 7/16/2007, 7:52 AM
Thanks Bob Yes thats what I'm doing testing and looking at all the ins and outs of making a film. DSE once told me to read loads of books.Thanks you have given me some invaluable information and advice. " Not to take things on face value." And Of course forgot about the 8bit problem.

QUOTE
edit DV proxies in Vegas and matchback in AE

Is this using the Plugin? http://www.forgedimages.com/vegasimportorder.html

This sounds cool. Whatever route I may take I think its worthwhile to learn everything. Making a neg cut is still a good idea for archiving and some say to get the full res of 16mm you need 4k especially to blow it up to 35mm. Im sure there will be new developements and cheaper costs soon. The new Red will revolutionise HD when it happens.

ONE GRIPE I HAVE though is

VEGAS CMON where is 10 bit and a proper EDL for a neg cut? WHY is Vegas being left behind here?

farss wrote on 7/16/2007, 2:43 PM
I'd highly recommend a subscription to American Cinematographer:
www.theasc.com
Their various handbooks and charts are the bibles of anyone working with film. There's also a couple of books from a local wizard on the DI process available from Amazon, I'll see if I can find a link to them tonight.

Bob.

mark2929 wrote on 7/16/2007, 3:32 PM
I have the American cinematographer Manual 9th edition.

http://www.ascmag.com/magazine_dynamic/July2007/current.php

You can buy an online version of the mag too. You may like to visit my website

http://www.freewebs.com/stormdrainfilms/

Perhaps you may like to read the first ten pages of a script I have written?

http://www.freewebs.com/stormdrainfilms/services.html


It may not be your cup of tea though? At the bottom of the page is an equipment list.

How was you going to edit in vegas and then finish in AE? Was it using the Plugin? How would you use the vegas EDL if not? I have tried opening a vegas EDL in AE it wont do it?

The trouble with buying books on this type of thing (DI) things change so fast.

I had thought about this

http://www.videoguys.com/cineform.html

Would work in AE and Vegas I think. It would be great to edit a DI in AE so many professional effects could be added.


farss wrote on 7/17/2007, 6:44 AM
That's a pretty ambitious project. A quite scan of the script indicates a decent amount of cgi and one thing that'll drive cgi guys nuts is lots of grain. So you'd be shooting on low speed stock and that needs a heck of a lot of light, lots of light means lots of power which means lots of electricty, think very large generator(s) and their attendant wranglers. When you cost all that out it can end up cheaper to shoot 35mm.

I'm assuming of course you're aiming for cinema release?

Bob.
mark2929 wrote on 7/17/2007, 7:12 AM
Hi Bob Thats the first ten pages which is really very little FX compared to the rest of the script. Think fantastic 4 or Transformers. I have/am trying for funding with little success. but I have the script and Yes that would be way ambitious for me to make. But its something to aim for now and in the future.

The first part though wouldnt need that much CGI. Much could be done with lights and high speed lenses. I don't want to reveal to much in the early stages. Some footage of the aurora lights would help here. The first part of the film would be a little like the first Sci fi films although better filmed that builds to become a more modern style which is in keeping with the way the characters grow.

Your right 35mm along with some HD intercut footage perhaps. Although the likliehood is the whole film would end up HD. BUT I would still try for real film.

I have put an updated verision of the script here in pdf and correctly formatted if your interested.

http://www.keepmyfile.com/download/6ab17f1738979

HEY Sony read this. I may let you make it? Well you never know do you.