EDL import - inaccurate timecode below 1s

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 6:56 AM

When I open an EDL (type EMX3600) from a 25 fps source in Vegas Pro 17 as a 25 fps project, the timecode section below 1 second seems to behave inconsistent. For example I would expect 01:00:12:24 to be interpreted as '1 frame before 01:00:13'. Instead I need to use 01:00:12:2997 to get 24 frames after 01:00:12. In a 25 fps source and 25 fps project. You can test this by yourself, see edl content below. Is this a Vegas Pro (17 ?) bug or an obscure EDL feature? When I worked with professional PAL video units I never saw the TC value below 1 s higher than 24.

TITLE: TEST
FCM: NON-DROP FRAME

004  AX       V     C        00:00:00:00 00:00:04:00 01:00:04:00 01:00:08:00
* FROM CLIP NAME: shot4.avi

005  AX       V     C        00:00:00:00 00:00:04:00 01:00:08:00 01:00:12:00
* FROM CLIP NAME: shot5.avi

007  AX       V     C        00:00:00:00 00:00:04:00 01:00:12:00 01:00:16:00
* FROM CLIP NAME: shot7.avi

007  AX       A2    C        00:00:00:00 00:00:04:00 01:00:12:2997 01:00:16:00
* FROM CLIP NAME: _test.wav

Comments

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 7:12 AM

In case you're wondering why I'm using this old format.

I am currently working on a script for a Project Management System within my 3D package. One of the possibilities is to export relevant shots to any type of NLE. In order not to make it too complex for me, it must be a readable ascii text.

For that purpose, the Vegas Pro export/import txt in csv format would be sufficient for me personally, but I also want to offer the possibility to other users to export to their own NLE type.

Generally, I only need 1 track of video and 1 track of audio. EDL seems to suffice in principle, but it would be nice if any time shifts of the audio (relative to the animation) could also be found accurately on the timeline.

FayFen wrote on 7/10/2023, 7:42 AM

@Vincent-Mesman, Can vegas import CMX3600 format? I located in my archive EDL from 2001

TITLE: RUSHES1
001 100    AA/V C         06:00:20:11 06:03:14:01 01:00:00:00 01:02:53:15
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYORMENT1
002 100    AA/V C         06:03:30:20 06:04:32:17 01:02:53:15 01:03:55:12
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYOR2
003 100    AA/V C         06:04:46:13 06:05:16:22 01:03:55:12 01:04:25:21
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYOR3
004 003    AA/V C         00:00:29:12 00:03:31:19 01:04:25:21 01:07:28:03
* FROM CLIP NAME:  IC_TADR
005 041    AA/V C         00:19:53:15 00:20:08:10 01:07:28:03 01:07:42:23
* FROM CLIP NAME:  LS MIFL
006 041    AA/V C         00:20:13:20 00:20:29:01 01:07:42:23 01:07:58:04
* FROM CLIP NAME:  LS MIFL
007 002    AA/V C         00:02:28:15 00:02:45:12 01:07:58:04 01:08:15:01
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
008 001    AA/V C         10:02:20:14 10:02:37:13 01:08:15:01 01:08:32:00
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
009 002    AA/V C         00:03:11:18 00:03:36:12 01:08:32:00 01:08:56:19
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
010 001    AA/V C         10:03:00:01 10:03:05:21 01:08:56:19 01:09:02:14
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
 

my VP19 crashes on the import.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 8:35 AM

You can Import CMX3600 EDL in Vegas Pro 17 in two ways:
- File > Open > *.edl
- Import Media > *.edl

You can Export CMX3600 EDL in Vegas Pro 17
- Tools > Scripting > Export EDL

I'm unable to test this in VP18, VP19, or VP20.

DMT3 wrote on 7/10/2023, 9:21 AM

I tried testing both of your EDLS in V20.. @FayFen your edl is not formatted properly. @Vincent-Mesman I am seeing the same thing you are. It is not handling the 25fps correctly. I would guess that the EDL import was not programmed correctly for 25fps projects.

FayFen wrote on 7/10/2023, 10:56 AM

@Vincent-Mesman , I'm might got lost here,

in your EDL the first clip is at  01:00:04:00 but I got it at 00000 , so all 3 ends at 12sec.

* Strange, I mod your edl so shot7 will be at 12:24 and so the audio.

Now they were in sync at 9:00 with a 25 frames gap from 8:00.

** Now I went and changed ONLY shot7 back to 12:00 .... the video gap was closed but the audio "trimed" extra frames at it head. but I didn't changed its the IN point. indeed something fishy.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 11:08 AM

I tried testing both of your EDLS in V20.. @FayFen your edl is not formatted properly. @Vincent-Mesman I am seeing the same thing you are. It is not handling the 25fps correctly. I would guess that the EDL import was not programmed correctly for 25fps projects.

Glad to know that this hasn't change in VP20.
I'll try to contact support with this, and adjust my export interface into 'VegasPro17..20 bug fix' for CMX3600 export formats. I don't think I have older versions installed - hmm, maybe my old 32bit notebook.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 11:15 AM

@Vincent-Mesman , I'm might got lost here,

in your EDL the first clip is at  01:00:04:00 but I got it at 00000 , so all 3 ends at 12sec.

* Strange, I mod your edl so shot7 will be at 12:24 and so the audio.

Now they were in sync at 9:00 with a 25 frames gap from 8:00.

** Now I went and changed ONLY shot7 back to 12:00 .... the video gap was closed but the audio "trimed" extra frames at it head. but I didn't changed its the IN point. indeed something fishy.

The 1 hour offset for the recorder TC's is correct in Vegas Pro. A bit odd maybe.
Not certain if it's an official EDL requirement - I think I read that an earlier version without this 1 hour offset was changed into this method, and the offset prevented overwriting source tapes in case of errors in the edl file.

The frame# problem in the TC's isn't noticeable if you use integer values for seconds.
Only when using floating point values, in seconds, to indicated a frame number.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 11:25 AM

@Vincent-Mesman, Can vegas import CMX3600 format? I located in my archive EDL from 2001

TITLE: RUSHES1
001 100    AA/V C         06:00:20:11 06:03:14:01 01:00:00:00 01:02:53:15
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYORMENT1
002 100    AA/V C         06:03:30:20 06:04:32:17 01:02:53:15 01:03:55:12
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYOR2
003 100    AA/V C         06:04:46:13 06:05:16:22 01:03:55:12 01:04:25:21
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYOR3
004 003    AA/V C         00:00:29:12 00:03:31:19 01:04:25:21 01:07:28:03
* FROM CLIP NAME:  IC_TADR
005 041    AA/V C         00:19:53:15 00:20:08:10 01:07:28:03 01:07:42:23
* FROM CLIP NAME:  LS MIFL
006 041    AA/V C         00:20:13:20 00:20:29:01 01:07:42:23 01:07:58:04
* FROM CLIP NAME:  LS MIFL
007 002    AA/V C         00:02:28:15 00:02:45:12 01:07:58:04 01:08:15:01
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
008 001    AA/V C         10:02:20:14 10:02:37:13 01:08:15:01 01:08:32:00
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
009 002    AA/V C         00:03:11:18 00:03:36:12 01:08:32:00 01:08:56:19
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
010 001    AA/V C         10:03:00:01 10:03:05:21 01:08:56:19 01:09:02:14
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
 

my VP19 crashes on the import.

What happens if you modify the text:

Add this: FCM: NON-DROP FRAME
just below the title line.

Another difference is the tapename. Mine is set to: AX
Yours has a sequence number.
That didn't work for me too. I changed it to AX and it worked.
It may work in other software.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 11:28 AM

In case you're wondering why I'm using this old format.

I am currently working on a script for a Project Management System within my 3D package. One of the possibilities is to export relevant shots to any type of NLE. In order not to make it too complex for me, it must be a readable ascii text.

For that purpose, the Vegas Pro export/import txt in csv format would be sufficient for me personally, but I also want to offer the possibility to other users to export to their own NLE type.

Generally, I only need 1 track of video and 1 track of audio. EDL seems to suffice in principle, but it would be nice if any time shifts of the audio (relative to the animation) could also be found accurately on the timeline.

Btw I'd like to mention that my method of collecting a bunch of existing media files in an EDL file and send it to my (Vegas) NLE works very fast, and convenient because it's automated. Vegas accepts the EDL file as a command line parameter. When Vegas is started via a batch file, it opens the EDL automatically. Fantastic!
A great way to view my animations in context of their scene or sequence, each time I make updates.

I'll continue with the Vegas (';' delimited csv) txt format and use its multiple track feature to send each production step in-sync to Vegas. Simply Mute or Solo tracks for easy comparisons.

FayFen wrote on 7/10/2023, 11:54 AM
 

What happens if you modify the text:

Add this: FCM: NON-DROP FRAME
just below the title line.

Another difference is the tapename. Mine is set to: AX
Yours has a sequence number.
That didn't work for me too. I changed it to AX and it worked.
It may work in other software.

@Vincent-Mesman

That was a project I did on AVID way back on ~2001.

Indeed adding that line got it going and it was open in VP19, but it's incorrect

The last frame in the EDL is at 02:38:26:21 , but on the TL it's just 26:17

I can spot what happened, the EDL cuts are not on TL exact frames they are on sub frame,

I can jump to them with the ] [ but not with left/right arrows

** Hay... I found that if I set the project/TL to 30fps all the cuts are bang on the frame

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/10/2023, 3:58 PM

The original AVID project was PAL or ntsc?

FayFen wrote on 7/11/2023, 12:28 AM

The original AVID project was PAL or ntsc?

 

PAL,

TITLE: RUSHES1
FCM: FCM: NON-DROP FRAME
001 100    AA/V C         06:00:20:11 06:03:14:01 01:00:00:00 01:02:53:15
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYORMENT1
002 100    AA/V C         06:03:30:20 06:04:32:17 01:02:53:15 01:03:55:12
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYOR2
003 100    AA/V C         06:04:46:13 06:05:16:22 01:03:55:12 01:04:25:21
* FROM CLIP NAME:  ENVAYOR3
004 003    AA/V C         00:00:29:12 00:03:31:19 01:04:25:21 01:07:28:03
* FROM CLIP NAME:  IC_TADRICH
005 041    AA/V C         00:19:53:15 00:20:08:10 01:07:28:03 01:07:42:23
* FROM CLIP NAME:  LS MIFAL
006 041    AA/V C         00:20:13:20 00:20:29:01 01:07:42:23 01:07:58:04
* FROM CLIP NAME:  LS MIFAL
007 002    AA/V C         00:02:28:15 00:02:45:12 01:07:58:04 01:08:15:01
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
008 001    AA/V C         10:02:20:14 10:02:37:13 01:08:15:01 01:08:32:00
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
009 002    AA/V C         00:03:11:18 00:03:36:12 01:08:32:00 01:08:56:19
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
010 001    AA/V C         10:03:00:01 10:03:05:21 01:08:56:19 01:09:02:14
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
011 001    AA/V C         10:03:09:16 10:03:16:08 01:09:02:14 01:09:09:06
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
012 002    AA/V C         00:03:44:10 00:03:57:05 01:09:09:06 01:09:22:01
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
013 001    AA/V C         10:03:59:17 10:04:37:08 01:09:22:01 01:09:59:17
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
014 002    AA/V C         00:04:13:12 00:04:34:05 01:09:59:17 01:10:20:10
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
015 001    AA/V C         10:04:46:01 10:05:05:15 01:10:20:10 01:10:39:24
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
016 002    AA/V C         00:04:38:09 00:05:01:09 01:10:39:24 01:11:02:24
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
017 002    AA/V C         00:05:59:11 00:06:13:10 01:11:02:24 01:11:16:23
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
018 001    AA/V C         10:05:14:14 10:05:51:01 01:11:16:23 01:11:53:10
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
019 002    AA/V C         00:05:05:10 00:05:48:03 01:11:53:10 01:12:36:03
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
020 002    AA/V C         00:06:26:16 00:06:38:21 01:12:36:03 01:12:48:08
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
021 002    AA/V C         00:06:53:12 00:07:26:07 01:12:48:08 01:13:21:03
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.01
022 002    AA/V C         00:07:40:01 00:08:06:19 01:13:21:03 01:13:47:21
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
023 002    AA/V C         00:08:13:00 00:08:30:16 01:13:47:21 01:14:05:12
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
024 002    AA/V C         00:08:44:18 00:09:18:05 01:14:05:12 01:14:38:24
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
025 002    AA/V C         00:09:39:23 00:09:51:24 01:14:38:24 01:14:51:00
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
026 002    AA/V C         00:10:05:15 00:10:20:07 01:14:51:00 01:15:05:17
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
027 002    AA/V C         00:10:36:11 00:10:48:03 01:15:05:17 01:15:17:09
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
028 001    AA/V C         10:06:01:16 10:06:10:18 01:15:17:09 01:15:26:11
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
029 001    AA/V C         10:06:33:15 10:06:59:02 01:15:26:11 01:15:51:23
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.01
030 005    AA/V C         00:10:13:08 00:10:19:06 01:15:51:23 01:15:57:21
* FROM CLIP NAME:  IC+ UN2670
031 001    AA/V C         10:07:37:09 10:07:58:02 01:15:57:21 01:16:18:14
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
032 003    AA/V C         00:04:42:01 00:05:21:20 01:16:18:14 01:16:58:08
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CABAYOT ENTER
033 002    A    C         00:10:30:03 00:10:35:11 01:16:58:08 01:17:03:16
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
034 001    A2/V C         10:07:58:02 10:08:21:13 01:16:58:08 01:17:21:19
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
035 002    A    C         00:10:39:02 00:10:54:02 01:17:03:16 01:17:18:16
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
036 001    A    C         10:08:18:10 10:08:18:21 01:17:18:16 01:17:19:02
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
037 002    A    C         00:10:58:06 00:11:12:21 01:17:19:02 01:17:33:17
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
038 001    A2/V C         10:08:40:20 10:09:31:22 01:17:21:19 01:18:12:21
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
039 001    A    C         10:08:52:18 10:09:31:22 01:17:33:17 01:18:12:21
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
040 002    AA/V C         00:11:09:24 00:11:32:00 01:18:12:21 01:18:34:22
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.02
041 001    AA/V C         10:09:31:22 10:09:48:22 01:18:34:22 01:18:51:22
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
042 002    AA/V C         00:11:54:03 00:12:06:19 01:18:51:22 01:19:04:13
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.03
043 001    AA/V C         10:09:54:10 10:10:13:03 01:19:04:13 01:19:23:06
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
044 002    AA/V C         00:12:10:03 00:13:34:16 01:19:23:06 01:20:47:19
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.03
045 001    AA/V C         10:10:13:03 10:10:54:10 01:20:47:19 01:21:29:01
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
046 002    AA/V C         00:13:49:17 00:14:58:14 01:21:29:01 01:22:37:23
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.04
047 001    AA/V C         10:11:00:10 10:11:16:05 01:22:37:23 01:22:53:18
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
048 002    AA/V C         00:15:19:10 00:15:25:03 01:22:53:18 01:22:59:11
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.04
049 002    AA/V C         00:15:31:13 00:15:38:01 01:22:59:11 01:23:05:24
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.04
050 001    AA/V C         10:11:16:05 10:11:51:04 01:23:05:24 01:23:40:23
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.02
051 002    AA/V C         00:15:45:02 00:16:07:15 01:23:40:23 01:24:03:11
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS2.04
052 001    AA/V C         10:12:08:23 10:12:31:17 01:24:03:11 01:24:26:05
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.03
053 001    AA/V C         10:14:56:08 10:15:03:10 01:24:26:05 01:24:33:07
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS1.03
054 003    AA/V C         00:14:30:10 00:14:50:00 01:24:33:07 01:24:52:22
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CASS3.04
055 002    AA/V C         00:16:20:01 00:16:42:22 01:24:52:22 01:25:15:18
* FROM CLIP NAME:  CABAEYOT-SULAM

@VEGASDerek and to all other. here is part of my very old 25fps EDL, save it as 25fpsEDL.txt, load it to VP and zoom and check few cuts to see how they show on the T/L on a 25fps vs a 30fps project.

Are they on exact frame?

** I think this surly can labeled as a bug.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/11/2023, 6:31 AM

Just tested in Vegas Pro 14.
I can confirm the bug is already present in Vegas Pro 14.
So VP14 .. VP20 is affected.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/11/2023, 7:04 AM

Ok, I just sent a bug report for this.
Thanks everyone.

FayFen wrote on 7/11/2023, 7:15 AM

I wonder how other NLE's will handle that cmx3600 EDL sample.

I know @Reyfox has a bunch of them including MAGIX's and resolve.

They might need it as .edl and not .txt

Strange how this bug slipped thru the years, (maybe low count of PAL VP users?) basic sharing with other software is fundamental for a "pro" post production software.

Reyfox wrote on 7/11/2023, 1:11 PM

@FayFen VP20 was able to import the text file and show on the timeline in addition to playing it back. In Resolve, changing the suffix to .edl imported the file to the Media Pool, but without media, it will not go to the timeline.

Newbie😁

Vegas Pro 22 (VP18-21 also installed)

Win 11 Pro always updated

AMD Ryzen 9 5950X 16 cores / 32 threads

32GB DDR4 3200

Sapphire RX6700XT 12GB Driver: 25.3.1

Gigabyte X570 Elite Motherboard

Panasonic G9, G7, FZ300

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/11/2023, 4:11 PM

Actually, I removed the path name from my CMX3600 example but the Vegas Import has absolutely no trouble using path names. If you include them (with a text editor or a script), there is no need to search for the files manually.

Another issue I experience is the use of numbered image sequences in the EDL.
These sequences are more popular with animators because frames render on multiple computers in a network.
I can't get it working with CMX3600 EDL export (Error: Object required) or import, and unfortumately I can't get it working with Vegas EDL .txt export or import - even if I experiment with the file name, for example:

Alpha_001.jpg - Alpha_100.jpg
or
Alpha_[001 - 100].jpg
 

DMT3 wrote on 7/11/2023, 4:37 PM

The EDL like the CMX3600 were created long before computer NLE systems. It does not know what a still is. All sources on an EDL are considered video and must have a timecode reference.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/11/2023, 5:07 PM

Okay, the CMX3600 is old but its principles are still widely in use.
The Vegas EDL .txt format is much newer.

Still images are accepted when using Vegas EDL .txt for export/import.
It even supports path names, multi-track audio+video, fades, play rate, stretch method, etc.

When creating a Vegas specific format there is no reason to hold back.
Support for image sequences wouldn't be illogical.
And a good reason to upgrade (after buying a new computer first).

FayFen wrote on 7/11/2023, 11:03 PM

@FayFen VP20 was able to import the text file and show on the timeline in addition to playing it back. In Resolve, changing the suffix to .edl imported the file to the Media Pool, but without media, it will not go to the timeline.

@Reyfox, import/open is the EZ part, but is it correct in VP20's T/L on a 25fps project?

ZOOM to cut #22, it should end at 00:13:47:21

on VP19 it's not, the event ends mid frame at 00:13:47:17.5 you can't reach it with L/R frame arrows

This is the bug.

Can you check on Video Pro X... ? or PP?

 

 

Reyfox wrote on 7/12/2023, 6:36 AM

@FayFen on a 25P timeline, clip 22 ends at 13:47.18. And yes, I can not reach it with the left/right arrow keys. Expanding the timeline all the way out, I can, but once I do that, I can no longer place the playhead at the end of cut 22.

I do not have Premiere Pro, and the version of Video Pro X that I have is 12. It won't import the edl/txt file. Sorry.

FayFen wrote on 7/12/2023, 7:46 AM

@Reyfox Thank you, I guess I thought VPX is more "pro" (for $200) than it is.

As I don't think the EDL thing will ever be corrected in VP lets hope that the other export/import formats do.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/12/2023, 8:18 AM

Many NLE's have their own implementation of interpreting EDL files.
That's an important reason why this format could be much more popular.
EDL readers should (and could) be more tolerant to small variations.

To discover the format that your NLE uses, you can place 1 or 2 video clips and 1 or 2 audio clips on the timeline.
Some NLE's only accept small filenames (< 8 characters) - even when importing the EDL file.
Some NLE's do not accept path names, and need the source files in the same directory as the EDL file.
Single track video, single track audio.
Then export as EDL file from that NLE.
Open in a text editor and compare with EDL files from other NLE software like the examples provided above (again, I removed the path data from my examples - you can add your own path data)..

It's all readable ascii text. Often there is only a small difference that keeps your NLE from importing EDL files from other NLE software.

If you want to be certain the exported EDL file is correctly handled by your NLE at all, simply import it into a new project, in that same NLE.

-> If source files can't be found, it's probably missing the path data of that clip.
See what happens if you provide that clip path in the EDL file and try again.

-> Verify the EDL file provides timecodes using the format: HH:MM:SS:FF
Verify in the timeline that the FF part of the timecode is respected in a
project frame rate that is different from ntsc 29.97 fps.

For example,
In a 25 fps project with 25 fps source video clips, a timecode of 00:02:59:24 should be visible on your timeline as 1 frame before 3 minutes. And a timecode of 00:02:59:05 should be visible on your timeline as (4/5 or) 80% of one second before 3 minutes.
Not one single frame (or more) different.

If the timecode ends with 00 (in this example 00:02:59:00) this bug will not be visible at all.
Because 0 * 29.97 is still 0.

Vincent-Mesman wrote on 7/12/2023, 8:28 AM

@Reyfox Thank you, I guess I thought VPX is more "pro" (for $200) than it is.

As I don't think the EDL thing will ever be corrected in VP lets hope that the other export/import formats do.

The solution isn't exactly rocket science.
As long as EDL is supported as an input and output format, it would be wise and respectful to the users to fix it.

I don't expect Magix developers to fix older versions of Vegas Pro.
If it will be fixed, I will have a very strong reason to upgrade from v17 to v20.x or v21.
Maybe even before upgrading my Windows 11 incompatible hardware before Microsoft stops technical support of Windows 10.