Enough Already...

jlafferty wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:12 PM

For all the people who are claiming the PSP/iPod output is an insult, and are trying to use it as sand to kick in the face of the developers, I have to say: give it a rest and grow up.

A little perspective: I live in Brooklyn and commute daily to Manhattan. On the train you've got 60-85% of your co-riders wearing headphones. Just about all of them used to be listening to iPods, but I would say now it's 70/30 iPods and PSP's. Of the iPod users, I'd say 30 to 50% of them are now carrying iPod Video units.

Whatever your feelings are about how new portable tech is splintering society (that's another conversation entirely), this disgust with Vegas's support for these formats is narrow minded. Claiming it's only a consumer "gimmick" or something similarly condescending is ridiculous: last I checked media producers want people to consume their products -- if you're producing something and you want it to reach people -- a mass of people -- guess what, you're going to output to (among other things) MPEG4 or some form of H264 in the near and immediately forseeable future. More and more you're going to see people carrying portable video players around, many of them in the form of their cell phones, and that's going to be the best way to reach them -- with whatever message you want. PSP, iPods and devices like them are The Future, and the Sony team should be thanked for having the forsight to implement it.

To the HVX whiners: please give it a rest. You keep threatening to leave Vegas -- go ahead already. That camera is not the Holy Grail. It's not even what it promised to be. It's at best still in its teething stages -- the P2 workflow, while a tempting idea, is often a nightmare in reality, and currently before its time (in a bad way). Don't get me wrong -- if I could cherry pick a cam's features in Fantasy Land, about 75% are in the HVX, but back in reality it simply doesn't function as the be-all camera it was supposed to be. I don't know the numbers, but given how relatively quiet Panasonic and the DVX fanbase has been since the HVX was released, I can't imagine it has that big of a market share. So, why should any NLE jump hoops to support every single camera format out there no matter its market share? That's ridiculous.

To anyone who plays the "WTF?! Vegas 7 doesn't have <insert pet feature request here>, I'm leaving!" card with this and every release... please, stop wasting forum space and do it already. Your comments are not accomplishing anything constructive (yes, I appreciate the irony of my saying this in this post), and do little more than come across as the typed equivelant of a childish foot stomping session.

Every year we go through this... even during the release of the hallowed Vegas 4 ("What?! No credit roll?! I'm leaving!"), and I'm completely with some of you and your requests, the app could be improved for sure, but don't kid yourselves into thinking you can strong-arm the developers into slaving over millions of lines of code to satisfy your needs simply by yelling at them. Put another way: I doubt half the angry posts reflect the way you'd talk to another human being face to face if they were sitting across the table from you. And, if you did speak to them that way, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd get laid out before you finished saying "What have you been doing for the last year and a half?!?!?!"

OK, I'm done. And no, I'm probably not upgrading :)

- jim

(....yet)

Comments

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:18 PM

"Put another way: I doubt half the angry posts reflect the way you'd talk to another human being face to face if they were sitting across the table from you. And, if you did speak to them that way, I wouldn't be surprised if you'd get laid out before you finished saying "What have you been doing for the last year and a half?!?!?!""

When someone pays you money, it comes with the territory. They dont like it? They can find another job and customer.

dibbkd wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:20 PM

And I thought you were going to say, "Enough already, quit acting like we're in the Pinnacle forum".

:)

jlafferty wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:23 PM

BTW, STFU. Last we looked, this is America and we all have a right to our opinions and the right to express them even if you dont like them or even if your opinions are wrong.

Right, like I just did. And you're telling me to STFU -- let me introduce you to my friend, "irony"...

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:28 PM

bStro wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:39 PM

Last we looked, this is America

Um...?

Rob

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:43 PM

Well America is where I am at and we have free speech although I am unsure for how much longer. Still even as an artist, we all believe in the right to express ones self and our opinions.

jlafferty wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:44 PM

Seriously dude, did you not think someone was gonna respond like that? Look at it from our point of view. Some of us are unhapppy customers and are voicing it. Thats the only way things will change. But if you are going to call those of us that are unhappy whiners. It wuld be no different than us calling you "kool aid drinkers."

Well, put it in perspective: I've posted one thing in difference with at quick glance five largely negative threads about Vegas 7. It's not even out yet and people are acting like the developers personally have their hands on your wallet! I'd hardly consider my one post the rant of a mass of delusional cultists. It's not as if I'm telling people to upgrade -- in fact it's the opposite. Seems you've got your analogy backwards.

Look, you're pissed off. Other people are too. I get it. I've gone through my own rants about Vegas over the years, but to what end? Either it functions for you or it is no longer worth your investment.

I understand you've invested time, money and energy working with and supporting the platform, and as such you are entitled to express your disappointment in the upgrade. But it's another thing entirely to whine and stomp and spit in the face of the developers -- get a grip, inject some civility into the posts. If you can't do that just yet -- get outside and take a breather, grab a beer. Come back in two weeks when the dust has settled and face the decision: Vegas 7 is worth your money, or it isn't. Sony is taking the app in directions that run parallel to your ambitions, or they aren't. Then, act accordingly. Act accordingly. Enough with the empty threats!

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:48 PM

I look back over my posts and I dont see where I was being uncivil. I never called any names or the like, I simply stated my position and then I backed up my position with my reasons. How much more civil can I possibly get?

David Jimerson wrote on 9/11/2006, 12:49 PM

"but given how relatively quiet Panasonic and the DVX fanbase has been since the HVX was released, "

That's a curious statement. I moderate that fanbase, and I haven't noticed any "quieting down."

Anyway, speaking as someone in a position to know, most HVX users already HAVE left Vegas.

jlafferty wrote on 9/11/2006, 1:06 PM

Outside of the DVXUser forum, there's not much talk of the HVX compared to other cams -- I thought it would leave a lot in the dust, but it barely edges out several cams when weighted with things like the hidden cost of P2. I also don't think you can use that forum as a good indicator of a Panasonic product's viability against the backdrop of "the real world."

Like I said, I don't have hard numbers -- I'm going on what I've seen "around" -- it was the camera that would spark a revolution, and yet it isn't nearly as revolutionary as the DVX was at its release and for years following. The effect of the cam isn't nearly as widely felt with even a cursory glance over the industry. For a time, you couldn't escape the image of "The maverick indie filmmaker with a DVX100 in hand..." and for good reason. The HVX by comparison? A misfire.

jlafferty wrote on 9/11/2006, 1:09 PM

I look back over my posts and I dont see where I was being uncivil.

Just scroll up. I guess telling people to "STFU" passes for civility in the circles you travel. Like they say, different strokes...

Otherwise, it's not as if my entire rant was aimed at you -- there are a handful of negative threads here, just pick one and scroll through...

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/11/2006, 1:11 PM

"Just scroll up. I guess telling people to "STFU" passes for civility in the circles you travel. Like they say, different strokes..."

Same could be said for calling people names...whiners ring a bell?

jlafferty wrote on 9/11/2006, 1:13 PM

Good point, I retract that and apologize.

Still, my overall point was directed at the nature of people's posts and not intended as personal attacks.

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/11/2006, 1:19 PM

Likewise, I retract mine as well. Hows that for civility? I do tend to agree though that some bitch just to bitch and that urks me as well.

Ill edit out my offending words.

p@mast3rs wrote on 9/11/2006, 2:02 PM

Jim, after re-reading your post, I agree with the PSP/Ipod opinion. I thought about how many of my school kids have video ipods/psp and then thought about sending them home with video tutorials and how it could help increase their skills or even their vocabulary.

Truth is we have definitely merged into a media consumption anytime anywhere society. Actually, I agree with all that you wrote after putting it into perspective. Still I hope for PS layer support someday in Vegas and a better titler. But Ill figure out a way to succeed like most of us always do.

jlafferty wrote on 9/11/2006, 3:35 PM

To be fair, I sort of smirked at these two "features" initially, as well. But the more I gave it some thought, especially with the increasing number of portable video I'm surrounded by nearly every day, the amount of videos available "for iPod" on the internet, the little light went off and I thought "Hell, if my aim was to be successful at producing some independent work and get it into as many hands as possible, that's the first market I'd target..." Even before DVD -- iPod/PSP has no packaging overhead, and... you can almost see the Vegas add now, "...with Vegas 7, output to these formats is simple and fast!"

Justin Young wrote on 9/11/2006, 3:38 PM

Here's my view on HVX200 support. There are several 3rd party products that appear to allow the use of this camera with Vegas. The licensing costs of including a DVCProHD codec would have pushed the price of Vegas up. The price of Vegas + ConnectHD is still less than most other products. I'm happy to pay extra for support for this camera if I need it (which I might), but why should everybody else also pay. I doubt Panasonic would offer Sony a deal on a license.

I think it is also worth pointing out that how good the HVX200 is isn't really the issue, as editors don't often control what a project is shot on. We can give recommendations sometimes, but if a director or cameraman wants to shoot on the HVX they will.

I'm quite excited about V7 now. It looks like the improvements to the workflow,as well as performance will make it worthwhile.

farss wrote on 9/11/2006, 6:40 PM

I agree, the age of postage stamp sized video is sadly here to stay.

So here's a thought, Sony just bought Grouper.com, a YouTube wannabee. How about all Vegas users gatting a leg into that space?

I'd bet we can do a**hole flamethrowers better than the YouTube mob, would be a good bit of viral marketing.
Give us the right to put the Vegas logo in the video??

Bob.

rmack350 wrote on 9/11/2006, 7:57 PM

I'm sure they'll find customers. Probably customers who haven't outgrown Vegas and will be very happy with it for a while.

If you've outgrown it, move on. Footstomping and pouting aren't going to do much.

Rob Mack

Chienworks wrote on 9/11/2006, 8:10 PM

A couple months ago i got a phone call from a major media production company (no, i won't tell you who) asking me to beta test their new upcoming PSP authoring software. I was flattered, but had to respond honestly that i didn't own a PSP, didn't have any associates who did, and i didn't intend to get one anytime in the foreseeable future. I begged out saying that if i didn't have access to one, i couldn't really do much to test it. We thanked each other for our time and hung up amicably. However, i could tell from the sound of the person's voice that she was very surprised that i didn't own a PSP. It didn't seem to fit into her world view.

Sure, i wouldn't mind having one. But given the choice between a PSP for movies or carrying around my notebook computer with a 15.4" SXVGA screen, i'll choose the larger one anytime, especially since i already own it and it didn't really cost that much more than a PSP.

bStro wrote on 9/12/2006, 8:33 AM

So here's a thought, Sony just bought Grouper.com

I read that before, but wasn't paying attention: Which Sony? If it was any Sony other than Sony (Madison) Media Software, we probably won't see any benefit or even side effect for Vegas.

Rob

kddubb wrote on 9/13/2006, 5:16 PM

btw, as a software developer I have to agree with the original poster. As a software development team you have lots of different requests come in. The upper management weighs all of the requirements and prioritizes them. The ones that generate the least revenue are the first ones to go. One the whole, I was rather impressed that Sony has addressed *most* of the requests that I've seen on this forum. For those that want a 3D titler you can upgrade to Boris Graffiti full version for $149 or add both Graffiti and FX for $299 which gets you pretty close the AE functionality (from what I can tell I haven't used any of it extensively and am just starting to read the marketing material) which seems very reasonable to me. Anyway, if I were Sony I wouldn't spend the development dollars doing something someone has already done and is already relatively cheap and is already integrated with Vegas. If anything maybe their working with Boris so FX and Graffiti will be able to be a little more tightly integrated and have a few less warts. Just including the LTD versions so we get preferred pricing is definitely a step in the right direction.

It seems like Sony even lowering the price to $134 is playing the odds that people don't think the upgrade is worth $199 and more people will buy because they think it is worth $134. It at least seems like Sony is at least listening and fitting a lot of the requests into the development schedule, so maybe if you ask nicely it'll show up in 8.0.

As a software development group, you can't do everything so you play the odds and sometimes chicken with your competitors...

For me, I haven't upgraded since Vegas 4.0 and DVDA 1.0. So for me, the upgrade is worth every penny. If this upgrade isn't work $134 then wait until 8.0 and maybe it will be.

Konrad wrote on 9/13/2006, 5:37 PM

"I read that before, but wasn't paying attention: Which Sony? If it was any Sony other than Sony (Madison) Media Software, we probably won't see any benefit or even side effect for Vegas."

It was Sony Pictures. But I thought the new chairman was going to fix the silo problem, although his odds for succes are slim to none and slim just left town.

Konrad

deusx wrote on 9/13/2006, 6:31 PM

I haven't downloaded it yet, and I really don't even need this version because I don't work with HD yet ( but I will upgrade anyway ).

$150 to upgrade? If only workflow improvements save you some time ( 20-30 minutes during an average day ) this version will pay for itself in about a week ( maybe in just a few days depending on what you charge for your time, time is money after all ).