external mixers or HUI?

troven wrote on 4/8/2004, 10:37 AM
i know this has been asked a lot but i'm thinking about introducing an external mixer (or HUI??) into my vegas audio setup (echo layla24). my concern is that adding an analog mixer would mean that my audio goes through too many D/A - A/D conversions since i'd just be going back to the computer for the final 2 track 'print'. is this an issue?

i had been thinking about using a mackie 1604. have any users found a significant increase in audio quality over using vegas' internal rendering engine? i'm not looking to add a mixer for anything other than audio quality. i'm one of those people who loves doing everything with a mouse - drawing envelopes etc..

also, in light of the fact that v5 supports external control surfaces does the mackie HUI do any summing or is it just a control surface? advantages

Comments

PipelineAudio wrote on 4/8/2004, 11:30 AM
Vegas cant conveniently be used with an external mixer , because of its lack of direct outs, or dedicated mono ouputs. Busses in vegas are treated as stereo, so...ok an example.

Lets say you have your kick on track 1 and your snare on track 2, and you want them to appear respectively on channel 1 and 2 of your external console. In order to do this you must create a buss and assign both of these tracks to it. Then you must pan the kick HARD left and the snare HARD right. Then drop the level of both tracks by 6dB

If either or both of these tracks is also assigned to an assignable FX send in vegas, it is now the victim of the pan setting and especially for reverbs, the imaging is out the window. Also the level adjustment of -6dB you made will play funny as well. You could use a plugin like gpan to pan that send back to the center of the FX.

You can "double buss" as in assign two separate busses to the same hardware output. The first buss you would turn down to -infinity the right side and on the second buss you would turn down to -infinity the left side. Then you could assign the kick to buss one and the snare to buss 2. Thereby eliminating the need for panning or level adjustment.

However, neither of these is a very fun way to go, and in the second case, adding additioinal busses adds to sketchiness of the app and severely decreases its stability

I HAVE mixed a few albums from vegas summed on a console, by going a third route and just wasting every other channel and assigning EACH track to a separate stereo pair. This is a terrible waste of resources and system stability but itll work.

If all you are using vegas for is a digital razorblade and using per track insert FX, you can summ on a console just fine using the first panning + drop 6dB method and come out just fine, but you lose all the internal fx and tricks

From here on out this is only my opinions. A mackie 1604 is NOT going to give you he summing clarity you would want. Its noise and sound character also will wreck the benefits of " glue" that analog summing can offer. But it MIGHT sound better in the end just because of the easier and more immediate action of eq's and the ability to use outboard gear much more easily. For this route I'd go for something more like the Dangerous 2 Buss, a much cleaner and simpler path, for summing only. I find projects I mix in analog to be "mushier" than internal vegas renders, though sometimes I have a little more control, and the mushiness is traded off for much more of the specific sound I wanted, but then Im bummed for the lack of automation available inside vegas.

The external control surafaces available to most audio apps dont offer any summing, nor would you want them to. What they do is something much more important. IF youve ever tried to set the level, BETWEEN two guitar tracks for instance, with a mouse, having control of two faders simultaneously will give you soooo much more power and vision over the final mix, that it completely trumps any minor differences in signal chain quality. Ill take the ability to control my mix, tracked with mackie preamps, then mouse mixing with a set of 9098's ANY day.

If vegas 5 supports external control surfaces, we can have both! The future is looking bright
Rednroll wrote on 4/8/2004, 12:07 PM
"Vegas cant conveniently be used with an external mixer , because of its lack of direct outs, or dedicated mono ouputs. Busses in vegas are treated as stereo"

I find the opposite for this. I do this all the time. I never mix directly in Vegas. The only mixing I do in Vegas is sub-mixes going to seperate stereo bus output, which is great for a Stereo bus. If I want to route a mono kick or snare track, to an individual out, this is easy also and follows most hardware mixing console conventions. Alls you have to do is route each track to that stereo bus, then use the pan control to route either hard left or hard right. No need to worry about the 6dB overload, that's why there is a "Constant Power" setting of the Pan control. Vegas has 4 Pan control settings, you just need to chose the right one, which would be "Constant Power" for this application. You can even adjust the levels of each bus output, by having the faders on the bus linked for stereo volume adjustment or unlinked for individual mono bus adjustment.
troven wrote on 4/8/2004, 12:11 PM
thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response pipeline. i'm assuming all the issues you mention above apply to digital mixers as well? the dangerous 2 bus sounded perfect to me until i read the $2,600 price! oh well!

i guess i'll just hope that version 5 features better rendering quality and add an external control surface further down the road.

one more thing - if vegas can't be conveniently used with an external mixer, then why does it seem that everyone here has one? tracking only?

thanks again,

t
Rednroll wrote on 4/8/2004, 12:19 PM
"if vegas can't be conveniently used with an external mixer, then why does it seem that everyone here has one?"

It can be conveniently used with an external mixer. You just need to know how to use the features that are already there, instead of jumping through unneccesary hoops like Pipeline is. I've been using it with a Yamaha 03D (Digital Mixer) since v1.0
PipelineAudio wrote on 4/8/2004, 1:11 PM
I still say it isnt right for using an external mixer. Just like everything else in Vegas, there ARE workarounds. They arent always the best

I cant speak for everyone else, but for now I have a mixer (Soundcraft Ghost 56 and Trident Series 65) as just a big expensive volume knob, unless and until Vegas has proper auto input minitoring capabilities, and a PC has the power to handle them properly. It works out fine in most cases, and though I used to hammer on about " the Vegas sound" I dont mind rendering inside vegas any more at all.
Rednroll wrote on 4/8/2004, 1:26 PM
Good things are headed your way.
drbam wrote on 4/8/2004, 3:39 PM
I find the mono track bussing issue to be a big hassle when mixing with a external console *if* I want to use plugins such as stereo verbs or delays. However, there are workarounds, and I primarily engage an external console to use outboard gear - primarily higher end verbs and delays. I also agree with Pipe, in that you certainly don't want to mix through a Mackie to "improve" your sound cause it ain't gonna happen. The summing is lousy.

drbam
troven wrote on 4/8/2004, 4:27 PM
"Good things are headed your way. "

could you be a bit more specific or are we headed into NDA territory ;)
Cold wrote on 4/8/2004, 7:54 PM
Red, happy to hear you say that.
I'm sort of in between, often running drums out for summing, but then doing the final mix in vegas. Troven, think about preamps first, mix bus second. Really depends on your needs and budget. Don't expect better than vegas summing with a cheap (under the cost of a dangerous) board.The mackies are known for their clean preamps and that's about it. Read between the lines. If you can't afford true pro gear (neve, ssl, or equivalent, and don't worry few of us can), stay within vegas. I personnally use a board for tracking, monitoring, outboard, convenient overdubs without latency...
Steve S.