external monitor setup tips

SonyEPM wrote on 8/14/2002, 12:37 PM
Using an external TV monitor to preview DV projects is a great way to get a wysiwyg preview of your DV production. It is not that hard to set this up, but you need to be aware of a number of issues, both system config related, and Vegas specific.

I assure you that even with the minimum system (PII400, 98SE, 128mb ram, av-rated drives) this CAN be done in either NTSC or PAL- we've been doing it here since the pre-release development days of Vegas 2.0. Lest anybody think I have some super-powerful state of the art system, I don't. I am using a PIII800, 512mb RAM, Win2k, 2 IDE 7200k and 2 SCSI 10k drives on a Dell Precision 220.

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System setup:

1) You can use ME or 98SE, but these are less than ideal. Use either Win2k or XP if at all possible. At the very least you will get NTFS support (for unlimited file sizes) and dual proc support, but there are many other reasons why 2k and XP are superior for multimedia, which I won't over here.

2) Defrag your hard drives often! This makes a big performance difference.

3) Turn off PIO mode for all drives.

4) Enable DMA for all IDE drives (Win2k, for some odd reason, turns DMA off be default.)

5) Keep video display card, SCSI card, 1394 card, and sound card on unique IRQs if at all possible. Search this forum or creativecow.net/Vegas for "ACPI" or "IRQ" for more info.

More DV setup info here (accurate!):

http://www.creativecow.net/articles/spottedeagle_douglas/dv_basics/index.html

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Hardware needed for DV timeline playback to external monitor over 1394:

1) Make sure your 1394 DV card is "OHCI compatible, IEEE-1394DV". Just because it has a 1394 connection, doesn't mean it is OHCI compatible. If you have to install ANY software at all to make the thing work, it likely is NOT OHCI compatible. Windows will automatically install the right driver for your OHCI DV card- this same driver is used by Vegas, Premiere, Ulead, AVID DVXPress 3.5 and others. Pyro or SIIG cards are excellent choices if you are shopping for a new DV card.

2) With external monitor enabled, Vegas conforms the frames to the selected DV format (when needed), feeds the DV video data stream to the 1394 card, from there you need to convert DV to an analog video signal, and patch that into a TV monitor. Most NTSC camcorders can do "DV to analog passthrough", but many PAL camcorders do not (Euro tax issue). Check the camera/deck specs to confirm it supports DV>analog passthrough, or ask around on the Vegas forum.

You can also use a DV/analog converter instead of a DV camcorder. The Canopus ADVC-100 is a great choice, and supports both NTSC and PAL in the same unit. Highly recommended if you don't have, or don't want to use, your camera for this purpose.

3) You need a TV monitor of course. You can use just about any cheap TV, but a production monitor provides more accuracy and flexibility. I personally use a Sony PVM-146NU- works great for both NTSC or PAL, not terribly expensive. Personal choice here-

4) A waveform monitor is desirable, but not mandatory. If you are doing work destined for broadcast, you should look into one of these- expensive but worth it for the pro.

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Setting up Vegas for external monitor previewing:

1) Update Vegas to the most recent version (3.0c as of this writing).

2) Start a new Vegas project. Use either the PAL DV or NTSC DV project template, unmodified (depending what TV format you will be working in). Don't change any settings in the project template. Holding Ctrl+shift when starting Vegas will reset all preferences to their defaults if you get stuck.

3) Launch SF VideoCapture from Vegas and capture some DV clips.

*Using other 3rd party capture apps may work for you, but every app write the files a little differently, so to be safe, start out with SF Video Capture and use another app only after you have achieved full framerate previews as described below.

4) Immediately print one of those just-captured clips back to tape with SF Video capture. If you drop any frames or see any other weirdness, you'll need to look into system tweaks (as above for starters).

5) Load one of the just captured DV clips on the Vegas timeline. Right-click the clip>properties>media. Format should be "DV". If it does not say that, you likely have an alien DV codec on your machine and you are advised to remove it, and recapture. Although this may be obvious, if you have captured a PAL DV clip, you should be using a PAL DV project. If you have captured an NTSC DV clip, you should be using an NTSC DV project.

6) Size the Vegas video preview window to 1/4 frame size (360x240 for NTSC, 360x288 for PAL), and set preview quality to "preview".

7) Play the DV clip in the timeline. You should be able to get full framerate playback in the preview window (29.97 fps for NTSC, 25 fps for PAL). If you don't get this, stop right now and check the system configuration. Defrag, DMA, IRQs, other conflicts need to be resolved if you want good external monitor previews. If you do get full framerate playback, or are real close to it, proceed.

8) Enable the "Preview on external monitor" button on the Vegas video preview window. Go to options>preferences>video device. Set Device to OHCI compliant IEEE 1394 DV. Make sure the project format is conformed to the DV format you are working in (PAL or NTSC). Check "recompress edited frames". Apply.

9) Play the DV clip in the timeline again- if your 1394/DV>analog device/TV monitor are hooked up right, you should be seeing the timeline clip playback...at full framerate. At this point., Vegas is not recompressing anything- the file is being played back straight through Vegas without modification. If you aren't getting full framerate with all settings exactly as described, there is almost certainly a system config problem. Read this doc over and confirm everything previously stated.

10) Add a second DV clip to the timeline, crossfade it with the existing clip. Play both clips. You should see full framerate until you hit the transition, at which time the framerate will drop (how much depends on your system's capabilities), and once you are through the transition, framerate should jump back up full speed.

11) Make a time selection across both events, and choose tools> selectively prerender video (shift+M). Choose the .avi DV template for the format you are working in, and let Vegas finish the prerender. Only the sections that need processing will be rendered during this operation. Play the two clips again- you should see full framerate for everything, including the transition.

Side note: Real time previews,as defined in Vegas, means that frames are processed as fast as the system can handle them. It does NOT mean you'll never have to render anything ever and always see everything at full framerate. As you start to add fx, transitions or anything that requires processing, framerate will drop depending, ENTIRELY, on the capabilities of your computer. The faster your system, the better the performance. If you prerender, that is internally the same as playing back straight-cut DV, and you'll have full-framerate previews again. With computers getting faster and cheaper every day, the performance of Vegas will scale upwards every time you upgrade the system, no additional hardware needed.

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I hope this helps. Some computers are simply not capable of playing back anything at full framerate, but most reasonably modern machines are, if properly configured. Consider this document a starting point, keep good notes, and post your results pro or con here.

Comments

prairiedogpics wrote on 8/14/2002, 1:11 PM
Thank you kindly, SonicEPM. This is the type of post I have been looking for. I appreciate the time and effort you put into writing it. You should add to the FAQ list.

Dan
mitteg wrote on 8/14/2002, 2:08 PM
hello,

First of all, thanks for your long-accurated post. Unfortunately I could not sort the problem out.

In the end I have been able to capture video using Vegas Video capture 3.0. But the only way to do it is setting a "timecode in" and a "timecode out" and then hit "capture in/out". In this way it works flawlessly. If I hit "capture video" in the capture window the cameras plays the video but, in fact, no video is captured.

Well, so, once a clip was captured using VV capture I right click the clip>propierties etz... it's DV PAL video, everything is ok.

I have the preview window to 1/4 and "preview quality". I GET 13 or 14 FPS ALWAYS !! It doesn't matter what I do, or what I configure... If the video is played from the timeline I get a jerky video ALWAYS. I'm not previewing the video in an external monitor yet.

If experts need my config. details look this post:

http://www.sonicfoundry.com/Forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=116948&Replies=5&Page=1

I hope someone is having better luck than me.

Robert.
SonyEPM wrote on 8/14/2002, 2:58 PM
what type/speed is the drive is the DV file saved to? If IDE, is DMA enabled?
mitteg wrote on 8/14/2002, 4:04 PM
SonicEPM,

what type/speed is the drive is the DV file saved to? If IDE, is DMA enabled?

I have a Seagate Hard Disk, 80 Gb, IDE, ATA100, 7200 rpm and the DMA is enabled. Wow, have you ever had the feeling that the computer is trying to drive you mad ? jajaja .Anyway, I really appreciate your help.

Best regards from Spain

Robert.
salad wrote on 8/14/2002, 5:35 PM
Thanks for that excellent post SonicEPM!!!

pat
kkolbo wrote on 8/14/2002, 6:50 PM
One note that I found out. If I am using a Firewire drive as the source drive for the media, I have troubles using that same firewire channel for output to the monitor.

I have a second firewire controller/card in the machine (part of the Audigy sound card) and if I plug the output to the monitor into that, then all is well.

K
briang wrote on 8/14/2002, 7:09 PM

SonicEPM

An excellent post, which is greatly appreciated. My config uses an ADVC-100.

By trial and error, I got my external monitor to work using almost the same method as you suggest using print to tape. I load a sample capture from disk into the print to tape function. It will then usually play on the monitor (not always) when I press the external monitor and play functions. If it does not play, I then use the cue function which always triggers the monitor. Everything then works perfectly thereafter as you describe.

I also agree with danieljoelle, and suggest you put this with the VV FAQ's for other users.

As a FAST Video Machine user of many years, I have to say I am mighty impressed with Vegas Video, as I know are a lot of other folks Keep up the great work!
Former user wrote on 8/14/2002, 7:38 PM
In my case, the preview is stuttery, but the output to External is clean. I have an AMD K6-2 450 cpu with 320 meg memory.

One thing I noted in SonicEPM's first part of the post, the minimun he lists is an AV rated drive. How much difference will this make?

Dave T2
winrockpost wrote on 8/15/2002, 7:54 AM
Thanks SonicEPM,, good info but.......
Still ,I have smooth print from timeline to tape ,viewing on ext monitor
but jumpy on preview ext monitor prerender,fx or not ,just doesn't play completely smooth unless I print to tape.. You know I really dont give a %@*& ,just use it for color and safe title stuff, but cant help to wonder why ?
two different systems, g550,amd athlon 2000+,dedicated 7200 rpm 8buf drive,1024 ram
prophet4000xt.amd athlon 1.3 dedicated 7200rpm drive,512 ram
(project rendering set to best ,dv format)
mitteg wrote on 8/15/2002, 11:30 AM
risce1,

I'm with you, I still get jerky previews. I will format the HD, and try installing Windows XP Pro and VV 3.0c only. We'll see.

Robert.
SonyEPM wrote on 8/15/2002, 1:37 PM
If you have prerendered already, and you are seeing a difference between print to tape from the timeline and preview from the timeline, try right clicking the video preview window and choose "Display at project size".

Johannes_H wrote on 8/15/2002, 3:42 PM
>>If you have prerendered already, and you are seeing a difference between print to tape from the timeline and preview from the timeline, try right clicking the video preview window and choose "Display at project size".<<

Thats exactly what I can see: Print to tape works perfect, preview from timeline drops frames. "Display at project size" setting makes no difference.

More details: In my case the framerate which is displayed by VV in the bottom of the preview window ALWAYS shows 25 fps (DV PAL), i have NEVER seen this number going down (except there are parts that have to be rendered). But at the external monitor I can see that there are frames dropped. Not always and not constantly but it is clearly noticed. I have never seen this when "printing to tape".

My setup: I am not new to edit DV video on my PC, I am only new to Vegas. On my machine I also have installed Adobe Premiere 6.0 and with this I never could see dropped frames when playing back unmodified material.
My disks show rates above 15-20 MB/sec, and I use the Audigy Player IEEE1394 which is OHCI, all this under WindowsXP Prof. And the clips I am talking about were captured with Vegas Video Capture Application.
If needed I can give a detailed list of my hardware but from my point of view the most interesting question currently is: Why does "Print to Tape" work excellent vs the dropped frames when "Previewing". I think that the working "Print to Tape" proofes, that the hardware and the setup (IRQs, DMA, Op.System, etc.) are all working correctly?

Congratulation, your initial posting within this thread is a really good summary for newcomers that have to sort out the basic setup.

Regards
Johannes
salad wrote on 8/15/2002, 6:06 PM
You should consider getting a separate 1394 card. I keep my Audigy 1394 Host Controller disabled until a day I need it. Someone else reported a "fix" when they did the same.

pat
winrockpost wrote on 8/15/2002, 6:10 PM
Cheesehole wrote on 8/16/2002, 10:55 PM
have y'all with 1394 preview issues tried a different card? for $35 it's a worthy troubleshooting step. just plug and boot and Win2k/xp will install appropriate drivers. it's not worth it for me to spend more than a few minutes on a problem that can be solved for such little funds. if it doesn't work, at least you know it isn't your 1394 card. and you are only out $35.
Johannes_H wrote on 8/22/2002, 10:04 AM
I just tested your suggestion and put a seperate 1394 OHCI Card in my machine.
Same result as before: Dropped frames when previewing from timeline.

BTW, there are some threads on this same issue and all have stopped! No more replies there. Does that mean that it is at its end? And we have to live with the dropped frames when previewing? I really hope, that this is NOT true.

Johannes
HPV wrote on 8/22/2002, 1:18 PM
BTW, there are some threads on this same issue and all have stopped! No more replies there. Does that mean that it is at its end? And we have to live with the dropped frames when previewing? I really hope, that this is NOT true.
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Still an issue for me also. I wasn't going to bother SF with it until I build my new system that will have more ram/XP and upgrade to Vegas 3. I really was hoping that Dennis would say that they did do some test with the type of clips I and others say shows the problem in a big way. And once again, why would all these systems play DV files just fine from VidCap, Premiere, Studio DV and other apps. but not from the Vegas timeline. Dr. Dropout/SonicEMP once wrote that the timeline doesn't have buffering like VidCap does.
Maybe someone going to a VAST class can take some "panning" footage and see if D.S.E. can make his system play perfect OHCI previews from the timeline.

Craig H.
Bucoholic wrote on 10/3/2002, 10:48 PM
I am not able to preview on my monitor. I am a newbie and this is my first attempt to preview on an external monitor. I have an OHCI/1394 complient card. I have the device set to the OHCI/1394 card. I have a Canon ZR-45 DV camcorder. The camcorder is on and I have S-Video out from the ZR-45 to the external monitor. The monitor is also on. I click on the Preview on External monitor and it only previews in the window not the moitor.

HELP :)

Please
Finster wrote on 10/4/2002, 9:35 AM
If I forget to turn my converter on it does just what you describe--plays on the preview window instead, even though the external monitor is selected. If I click on the external monitor icon again then a properties window pops up for the OHCI card and somewhere in that window it says "device unavailable." This sounds like your problem, Vegas is not seeing your camera as an A/D converter, and your camera must not be passing the signal through.

Maybe there is some menu function you have to set on your camera to get it to pass video through and convert it? If you can record DV video from Vegas into your camera then you will know the 1394 card is working. Also check video settings in "project properties" in Vegas.

Good Luck,
Finster