As far as I know Vegas simply doesn't support using the video out feature on any video card period.

For other converter devices look at the ADVC-100, if you also need to capture from analogue tape look at the ADVC-300. If you want something a bit cheaper look at the ADS Pyro A/V link, I've never got mine to work but you should have better luck than me.

Biggest advantage of using external preview via 1394 is you're going to see the images the same as how Vegas will do a PTT.

There are several problems with using the TV out of the video card. For one thing, it's not really the same video signal that your camcorder and TV normally work with. It's usually a lesser-quality hack that provides a convienent connection, but doesn't necessarily meet the NTSC or PAL specs. There is no guarantee that the brightness, saturation, contrast, or gamma will match what the video is supposed to look like. On the other hand, the signal that comes out the firewire port is absolutely identical to the DV signal coming from the DV camcorder. Another problem is that in order to display the video through the TV out port, Vegas must generate an uncompressed video and update the entire display (often 800x600 or higher resolution) for each frame. This can severely tax the processor and drop the frame rate significantly. The firewire output is a compressed DV signal at native DV resolution and the processor has a much easier time keeping this going at full frame rate.

One of the most common converters in use these days is the Canopus ADVC-100. This device has analog S-Video, composite, and stereo audio inputs and outputs and can handle both NTSC and PAL. It has a firewire connection to link it to the computer. It can convert any analog source coming in to DV and also convert any DV back into analog. It can be had on the street for about $225 or $250 (US).

Why do you have the battery connected at all while using your camcorder for this purpose? Disconnect the battery while using AC power for the camcorder.

My book is about Vegas, not about broadcast techniques. :-) Until this forum, I didn't even know this was a subject for debate. No where else will you find this sort of discussion.
TV outs on video cards are generally low resolution, somewhat like a scan converter. Even when they are not, the signal is going through it's own color processing and signal processing that won't be accurate to what the Vegas window is showing.
There are literally hundreds of articles on broadcast monitors all over the web, which is part of why I don't quite get the confusion. Anyone who does semiprofessional or professional work needs to have a video monitor that is calibrated, meets standards, and has consistency. At the least you owe this to your client. Consumer TV's use cheap parts, cheap power supplies, and are not consistent. They are subject to interference that you can't always see. There is a whopping difference between an 800 line 13" monitor and a 300 line 13" monitor. There is also a big difference in price. Anyone willing to argue this point clearly has never done real broadcast work as far as most are concerned.
I know I'm on the side of spending more money when many folks are trying to do this on the cheap. However, 2 places you can't skimp, IMO.
1. Monitor speakers that are the best quality you can afford, allowing you to HEAR everything in the signal, and having your room at the least marginally tuned to help you hear everything.
2. Broadcast monitor so you can SEE everything.
CPU's come and go. Hardware changes like kleenex. But a good set of speaker monitors and a good broadcast monitor will last for a long, long time. Until we moved our "A" room, I'd used the same event and JBL monitors for 11 years, and the same Sony 9" for 5 years. Only recently have I switched, and even though my Sony was already old when I got it, and has to be calibrated every couple months (blue keeps shifting) I'm pretty used to it and still use it along side my low end Sanyo/Walmart unit and my high end 13."
In the end, if you are doing work for clients or even for just a corporate gig, then you want to always see whatever you are outputting at it's very best, and if you can afford 2 monitors, at it's very worst. On a cheap monitor, illegal colors don't show up as clearly as they do on a B'cast monitor. Fuzz will hide details during compositing that you simply can't see on a cheap monitor. All of the same holds true for a video out on a video card. You won't be seeing what the real image looks like. Resolution, color shift, interference, and heaven knows whatever else is coming out of that card different from the original image.
If/when/maybe Sony supports the Matrox Parhelia (which would be very nice, Sony) then I *might* recommend using the video out because of how good the Parhelia is.
I think this is confusing in part because Vegas' price point has brought a lot of 'wish I was' level editors to the professional table, and folks are always trying to find inexpensive means of accomplishing something. That's fine when it comes to building skateboard dollies and telescoping lightbulb poles converted to booms, or using gel instead of blue glasses for calibration, or even using a camera as a converter vs using a full time conversion device. But it can get confusing if you try to do any display of audio or video on the cheap and expect professional results. I really want to race in the mud truck races like my cousin does with his 100K mud truck. So, I bought a tricked out Avalanche. It gives me a lot of pleasure to drive through those mudpits at 35-55 mph. But...he's racing for cash, so he's got a lot of money tied up in his truck, and it goes 90 mph through that mud. Somewhere, the line gets blurred between professionalism and devout hobbyism. Nothing wrong nor to be ashamed of, I'm not embarassed when I drive my truck through the mud at 55, in fact, I have a hell of a good time!
If you are just shooting family album stuff and images of the kids playing, etc for life history archival, you'll be just fine with a standard video out, even though it's not accurate. Kids and families aren't quite as picky like a client or employer would be. :-) In the end, just have fun.

Responding to all...

1) As far as the video card TV out: Thanks. I figured as much. But it was so obvious I just wanted it spelled out.

2) As far as the TRV900 hack: Liam I'm glad your TRV900 handles this. I have yet to give it a try. But I belong to the yahoo trv900 user's group and many people have reported problems. See http://www.bealecorner.com/trv900/rm95.html#transcoding. (I was led to believe its a 2-way issue as well, i.e., firewire->analog. Perhaps this was my error.) I was really more concerned with the inconvenience factor.

3) Canopus and ADS...everyone seems to love the ADVC-100. Thanks.

4) Battery death: Remember I said: "I learned the hard way" :-) No one told me to remove the battery. I figured it would just maintain its charge and remain at 100%...too bad it started dropping to 0% after 2 minutes of disconnected operation. Heck, I even know a thing or two about batteries, but it seems the recommended operating procedures change every couple of years :-) And I was not the only one...when I reported the issue to the trv900 yahoo group, there were a number of "doh's" and "aha's".

Thanks everyone. It clears it up for me, at least.

I use the Canopus 100 for editing on the TV and when i do a small pre-render
(the external firewire is cut off by Vegas) I will look at the media player output and the tv ouput of the Matrox Parhelia at the same time and to tell you the truth, I can't tell the difference between the Matrox tv out and the Vegas firewire tv output.(not saying there is not any difference) I am using a small Sony 13 inch set. I also use the dual monitor setup with two LCD panels.

JJK

YEah, that whole Li-on "never loses it's charge" thing is a rip. I go through laptop batteries doing exactly the same thing. I try to remember to disconnect, but often forget.
JJkizak, you don't see a lot of difference with the Parhelia, but it's there. I've got one, as do many others here. Run a veg of test media, create some convergence lines with track motion, and output it. Look at the diff from direct firewire to the Parhelia. Parhelia has amazing resolution, but the reds will be redder in the Parhelia, and it will be just a touch softer.
I love the parhelia though!

Another problem is that in order to display the video through the TV out port, Vegas must generate an uncompressed video and update the entire display (often 800x600 or higher resolution) for each frame. This can severely tax the processor and drop the frame rate significantly. The firewire output is a compressed DV signal at native DV resolution and the processor has a much easier time keeping this going at full frame rate.
------------------------------------
Chienworks, you're wrong about that. I get twice the framerate via my graphics card vs. firewire ext. monitor. Check for yourself. Stack some filters to get around a 15fps preview via firewire. Turn off ext. monitor and watch it jump up to 29.97.
Rich, yes you can use the TV output of your Nvidia card with great results. The trick is to get it to output an interlaced signal and run at 720x480. The only way I know of to do that is with this software
http://tvtool.info/index_e.htm
Some tv encoder chips have a better quality than others. My Geforce MX2 400 tv output is just about the same picture quality as firewire ext. monitor signal. Maybe I can't see more of a difference becasue of my monitor? A simple Svideo switch box lets you bounce between signals to dial in your tv out to match the firewire ouput. Gamma, brightness, contrast and color saturation are all adjustable via sofware.You will need to drag your Vegas preview window to the second windows screen and size to fill screen. This will give you all of the action safe area of the video signal. In the end, you should use the ext. monitor signal for color correction. But it sure is nice to have hardware acceleration that doubles your preview framerate. Svideo switch box makes going back and forth a breeze. Well sorta. The Vegas preview toolbar gets pushed to the top of the screen and makes it tricky to turn the ext. monitor feature on and off. I'm going to put in a request to Sony that would let you place the toolbar on the side of the preview screen or over on the main interface screen. Or maybe they can make the signal play in the preview window on your main screen and also send the signal to the tv output (with no tool or status bars). VidCap does this NOW.

Craig H.

Well SPOT, perhaps the reason you keep saying you're confused is because you're suffering from misinformation. You've said several times now in different threads that those little cheap TV's you don't like use 300 lines of resolution. You said it again in this thread. Unless you're confussing it with something else, which for sure is easy enough to do, or maybe I'm confusing what you're talking about, you're simply mistaken.

The standard (NTSC) has been 525 lines ever since TV was first invented as AFAIK. You have some cite that shows different? The following is one of hundreds I could give you that says it is 525 lines not 300.

http://www.pcvsconsole.com/hank/answer/424.html

What is a 'wish I was' editor SPOT?

You know, I stick up for the person new to video editing. I never make fun of them or try to betlittle them or say they are 'wish I was'

I wish you were more understanding, EVERYONE, even you SPOT, was a beginner once. You seem to have forgot.

SonOfABitch, we get a few days of Christmas cheer and then back to this CRAP.

For your information, BB, I am a 'wish I was' editor. SPOT was targeting me and my ilk, not you and yours. Whatever you are or think you are, you were not called out by name. As for me, I upgraded to VV from Studio, and am glad I did. I'm trying to break into a side business and cash is tight. I cannot afford high end broadcast monitors. Hell, I just recently started monitoring on an external TV. Yes, I 'wish I had' a business need that warranted more equipment, but I don't - it's a weekend thing for me. BUT - I recognize the need for broadcast monitors - and other PRO gear - at a pro level.

More to the point - he wasn't belittling anyone. Give it a rest.

SPOT's point about "two places you can't skimp" have turned out to be exactly my experience. I had heard him talk about these components both in person and on his training tapes. It was tough deciding to spend the money, but I looked at it over the long run (kind of like buying a really good mattress that you use every single day for many years), and it made sense in my case to take the jump. The day I got my Mackie 626 monitor speakers, my whole world changed. The quality of my output was immediately better in easily perceptible ways. No more frustration of rendering, burning to DVD, testing the result, and then finding out the audio has to be redone, followed by further cycles of tweaking, re-rendering, re-burning, playing, etc., until it comes out right. Then I got my Sony broadcast monitor (PVM-14L2) and my whole world changed again in the same way.

I had initial trouble with my ADS Pyro A/V Link, but have been using it without problems since mid-November.

So in my particular case, it really paid to go with the professional grade equipment. However, I think everyone is on the same page (e.g., BillyBoy, SPOT and others) with respect to how you equip yourself depending on what your product is and what you’re using it for.

JCG

BB,
what he's referring to is the resolution along one scan line. If you checkout even pro monitors you'll see they range from about 400 lines to 700 lines and the price goes up accordingly. This has absolutely nothing to do with the number of scan lines.

Which is my point. Not everyone here wants to follow in SPOT's footsteps or anyone else's footsteeps for that matter. Vegas has many uses and is used by many levels of people. Everyone from professionals to the greenish of rookies and lots in between the two extremes.

That isn't to say that SPOT doesn't do a good job, he does and he's a professional (as he keeps reminding us) which is MY point. Such remarks like 'wish I was' are self-serving, insulting and hurtful and totally out of order. Am I the only when that has the courage to say so?

Sorry, I don't believe in sacred cows. Someone mouths off, I notice and I comment. You can't handle to read by comments. This forum is for EVERYONE, not just elitists or those that think they are. Which is why I offered an alternative to buying a more expensive monitor. If you can afford one, or whatever you think you need buy it. Just don't pretend it manatory or your less :"professional" if you don't do such and such just because someone said you must.

Billyboy, you are confusing horizontal lines with raster lines or vertical resolution. This has been discussed to death. I guess you'd suggest then that the 1200 horizontal lines of resolution available on a high end broadcast monitor still only display 525 lines because of the NTSC signal? Based on your criticism, how does VHS at 230 lines and SVHS with 400 lines display correctly on a 525 line NTSC television? Why should anyone buy a 2k line camera? Based on your comment, it makes me wonder why Sony is so foolish to invest the millions in the cost to build PVM 20's.
I don't believe, and certainly hope no one takes my 'wish I was' comment as a negative. I wish I was a mud racer too. But I'm not. I wish I was a professional balloonist. But I'm not. I'm a professional editor and composer. I wish I was a better Jingle writer, but I'm not. So I've not purchased the equipment that would help me be a better jingle writer, because I know I suck at writing 15 second spots. I wish I was better at wording things sometimes, too.

SPOT, a good "professional" defines terms before he used them.
Especially when they can have different meanings depeding on they are used.

I agree with the external monitor button being elsewhere. Most of the time I'm only watching on external, and the only time I'm not is when it becomes time to color correct or sample for a key. Otherwise, i wish I could just lose the black window easily and have a toolbar button at the top that toggled it on and off.
Framerate is faster internally because of how the system manages the resolution of compressed frames, I think. Jump your preview to 720x480 on even the computer monitor, and you'll start dropping frames, albeit not as many as you would externally.
But for me, I'd sure like to see the preview window be able to disappear. Completely. When I want it to.

:-) Guess I'm a 'bad' professional then. Sorry. I'm terrible at describing things sometimes. I hope I never have to do a composite description for a police sketch artist.
Happy New Year!

SPOT - hope you saw in my post above that, after my initial problems with the ADS Pyro A/V Link, I have had smooth sailing. Wanted to close the loop on that since it was a product criticism from me from some months back. Thanks.

JCG

I really never tested the tv output of the parhelia as the stuff I do is not that critical. My observation was strictly eyeball and I hope I haven't mislead someone who is looking for that kind of accuracy. Every thing I do is checked about a million times on the firewire connection, at least it seems like a million before final render. I am about a quarter of the way through your book SPOT. Already went through the DVD's. I was hoping you might do something on ACID PRO.

JJK

I agree with the external monitor button being elsewhere. Most of the time I'm only watching on external, and the only time I'm not is when it becomes time to color correct or sample for a key.
-----------------------------
Spot, you do color correction on a RGB monitor? If so, what does that offer vs. using the ext. monitor? I do most of my editing via the tv output on my graphics card (higher framerate) and check color correction with ext. monitor.
Happy Holidays to you and everyone on this forum. :- )

Craig H.

way to go Spot,,, good reply,, kinda hum.........lets see ,whats the word ,maybe professional.


These pi#$ing matches are really gettin old.
Happy Newyear

I do color correction exclusively on an external monitor, and one that I know really well, and is calibrated fairly regularly. Even with all the gamma and color adjustments available for RGB, and we have a Pro-Tek color adjustment package, it's not as easy trying to get a great image on RGB as it is on a broadcast monitor. Paper translates well for print from the RGB, but not video. If I'm on travel, I just make a note on a 'notes' track via the titler, that I need to do corrective work or something else when I get home, and then correct there. I've once done this without using a monitor I knew, and while it wasn't heinous, it wasn't my best either.
www.encoreattractions.com has several video clips, and you can pretty easily tell which one it was based on colorspace differences.