Extreme color banding in VP21 with new camera

MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/21/2025, 4:19 PM

The situation is I purchased a Canon C80 and all of the footage is presenting VERY heavy color banding in areas like clean walls and the sky. I'm coming from the Canon R5. I'm familiar with this, I know that working with and rendering an 8bit project will lead to banding but it's always been somewhat manageable and usable for rough cuts. But with the new camera unless it's 32bit float it's just too much. In 32 bit float it's nearly perfect on the R5 but still noticeable on the C80, but the rendering/performance is of course slower and that's not always ideal when rendering 3 hours of footage.

Results have been the same no matter the bitrate, color profile, etc. It's all 422 HVEC or AVC footage.

My question is this, does it have something to do with the camera settings, codecs, bitrate, etc, or am I simply outgrowing what Vegas Pro can do with this footage? Resolve looked a little better than VP did with the same clips

Comments

RogerS wrote on 2/21/2025, 7:24 PM

Can you share a screenshot of what you are seeing?

Can you describe exactly what settings the camera is using that has the issues in the screenshot? (which Clog, 10 bit?)

If you want to stay at 8-bit precision for speed reasons I wouldn't shoot in log formats. Does Canon still have the wide dr setting that was a nice compromise?

If it's possible to get a short test clip with smooth areas we can see if there's a good way to work with it in VEGAS. (upload to Google Drive, etc.)

MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/21/2025, 8:03 PM

Can you share a screenshot of what you are seeing?

Can you describe exactly what settings the camera is using that has the issues in the screenshot? (which Clog, 10 bit?)

If you want to stay at 8-bit precision for speed reasons I wouldn't shoot in log formats. Does Canon still have the wide dr setting that was a nice compromise?

If it's possible to get a short test clip with smooth areas we can see if there's a good way to work with it in VEGAS. (upload to Google Drive, etc.)

Unfortunately I don't think I can compromise the flexibility of shooting log. BUT let me upload a clip or two tomorrow when I have sunlight again. I'll do both Clog2 and Clog3 (both 10 bit). I can upload HVEC or AVC in different bitrates but I'm not sure if that makes a huge difference. I've tried both ALL-I and Long GOP and both seemed the same as well. Just very strange that the canon R5 has much less pronounced color banding with Clog3 and even lower bitrate using IPB light. I'll also call Canon and ask for any tips.

RogerS wrote on 2/22/2025, 2:13 AM

Sounds like a plan. It's perplexing the cameras would be getting worse!

Mindmatter wrote on 2/22/2025, 3:39 AM

what kind of LUTs are you using?
Have you tried ACES?

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Wolfgang S. wrote on 2/22/2025, 9:54 AM

My question is this, does it have something to do with the camera settings, codecs, bitrate, etc, or am I simply outgrowing what Vegas Pro can do with this footage? Resolve looked a little better than VP did with the same clips
 

It is the combination of log used in a 8bit project, together with some LUTs maybe. We have seen the same with slog.

Switch to an ACES workflow, that delivers higher quality if you are not satisfied.

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MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/22/2025, 1:36 PM

Can you share a screenshot of what you are seeing?

Can you describe exactly what settings the camera is using that has the issues in the screenshot? (which Clog, 10 bit?)

If you want to stay at 8-bit precision for speed reasons I wouldn't shoot in log formats. Does Canon still have the wide dr setting that was a nice compromise?

If it's possible to get a short test clip with smooth areas we can see if there's a good way to work with it in VEGAS. (upload to Google Drive, etc.)

Well I've certainly pinpointed what makes it the worst:

It seems in Clog3 it's fairly manageable especially with a 32bit project. I could survive shooting that. However Clog2 looks like total trash in an 8 bit project. Also what REALLY exacerbates it is adding my "gamut" boost LUT which sort of pushes and pulls the shadows/highlights. Now it seems like I can actually get by in Clog3 but I'd hate to have to avoid Clog2 because of the banding. I included the clips I used here and the LUTs. I applied the conversion lut, then the look "hestia". If you want to try the gamut boost lut I always added it after the conversion, then added the look. Let me know what you think or what you come up with.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-A0W8No2Hw6sP9UXzcgBiz6OFnLrJqp0?usp=sharing

 

MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/22/2025, 1:38 PM

what kind of LUTs are you using?
Have you tried ACES?

Yea all my projects start in ACES colorspace by default

MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/22/2025, 1:40 PM

what kind of LUTs are you using?
Have you tried ACES?

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1-A0W8No2Hw6sP9UXzcgBiz6OFnLrJqp0?usp=sharing

The LUTs are in this folder. The gamut boost, which DOES make a tiny difference in the final render, is the biggest culprit. Basically with Clog2 it looks horrific in an 8 bit project. Even without the gamut boost lut

RogerS wrote on 2/23/2025, 3:17 AM

@MarkAnthony121 I just downloaded your footage. The first problem I see is an issue I remember confirming not too long ago- VEGAS improperly reading the metadata of Canon Clog footage as limited when it's full.

Here's the issue in 22.239

So first step in your workflow (ACES or 8-bit full) should be to fix the color range. You can select all media in the project media window, open properties and change it from limited to full manually.

Also if you want to match 8-bit full and 32-bit full with LUTs set compositing gamma to 2.2 in the 32 bit mode.

Is the baseLUT you are using from Canon or another source? I'm still seeing banding in 32-bit mode.

Even in ACES everything is falling apart, I'm not sure why.
Edit: I see the metadata says "Matrix coefficients : BT.709" which is odd for Clog 2.
I'd think it should be Canon Clog 2 cinema gamut. Can you check how the camera is set and pick a normal combination?

Clog 2 is an extremely wide dynamic range so I expect it would break with only 8-bits of precision by design.
https://www.canon-europe.com/pro/stories/enhance-filmmaking-with-canon-log/
https://snapshot.canon-asia.com/article/eng/videography-faq-what-is-canon-log

Last changed by RogerS on 2/23/2025, 3:17 AM, changed a total of 1 times.

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Try the
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MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/23/2025, 2:16 PM

@MarkAnthony121 I just downloaded your footage. The first problem I see is an issue I remember confirming not too long ago- VEGAS improperly reading the metadata of Canon Clog footage as limited when it's full.

Here's the issue in 22.239

So first step in your workflow (ACES or 8-bit full) should be to fix the color range. You can select all media in the project media window, open properties and change it from limited to full manually.

Also if you want to match 8-bit full and 32-bit full with LUTs set compositing gamma to 2.2 in the 32 bit mode.

Is the baseLUT you are using from Canon or another source? I'm still seeing banding in 32-bit mode.

Even in ACES everything is falling apart, I'm not sure why.
Edit: I see the metadata says "Matrix coefficients : BT.709" which is odd for Clog 2.
I'd think it should be Canon Clog 2 cinema gamut. Can you check how the camera is set and pick a normal combination?

Clog 2 is an extremely wide dynamic range so I expect it would break with only 8-bits of precision by design.
https://www.canon-europe.com/pro/stories/enhance-filmmaking-with-canon-log/
https://snapshot.canon-asia.com/article/eng/videography-faq-what-is-canon-log

Yes sir I have all of that set correctly. VP21 has all my color range set to full on all my clips when I import them. The lut I'm using is not Canon but I tried canon's default luts and the results are the same. And yes indeed my setting are set for both Clog2 and 3 to use cinema gamut as the LUTs are specifically designed for that. I've seen other posts and I'm not sure of the science behind it or how it works but it seems meta data always shows bt.709 as the matrix coefficient for Clog2/3.

That being said, depending on the order of my effects I usually don't see banding that bad in a 32bit project on Clog2. So I'll just continue experimenting. I think it's just Vegas considering it's better in Resolve. But either way I still think I can manage. Maybe someone or me will find settings that work better. All the while I'll stay hopeful that maybe VP23 will add support for Canon RAW so I can fully utilize the C80. I doubt it but I can hope lol

RogerS wrote on 2/23/2025, 11:03 PM

@MarkAnthony121 Which build of 21 are you using? 208? Your signature says 22 so I wasn't sure. I have 21.208 here and 22.239 to test on.

I agree with you that I don't think there's a problem with the LUT or camera but rather an issue with banding due to VEGAS.

MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/23/2025, 11:07 PM

@MarkAnthony121 Which build of 21 are you using? 208? Your signature says 22 so I wasn't sure. I have 21.208 here and 22.239 to test on.

I agree with you that I don't think there's a problem with the LUT or camera but rather an issue with banding due to VEGAS.

Sorry I'll update that. I use 21 208. I had 22, but slow rendering issues and other things forced me to switch back. And yes probably. Thank you for the help I appreciate it!

RogerS wrote on 2/23/2025, 11:25 PM

21.208 reads the metadata properly so that makes sense.

There should be more updates to 22 so hopefully we'll see further improvements to the video engine.

RogerS wrote on 2/24/2025, 2:08 AM

When you use a LUT workflow try tetrahedral vs linear interpolation for a bit better results.

MarkAnthony121 wrote on 2/24/2025, 8:03 PM

When you use a LUT workflow try tetrahedral vs linear interpolation for a bit better results.

Yes sir, always, thank you!