Fan:Heat:BIOS:.... Firewire Cables?

Grazie wrote on 10/4/2002, 3:44 AM

There's been some development, which IMHO needed a new thread...

I've noticed that with the DV Canon, I recently borrowed and "nailed" the drop-out issue, there is an accessory, a firewire cable that has 2 in-line "lumps" at either end of the cable, about 10cms in from each end. They are cylindrical in cross-section. Are they some form of in -line smoothing capacitor? Or what? I might add that when I did the testing, I had to use an off the shelf Belkin 4pin-4pin firewire cable - no lumps. I didn't have access to the Canon 4-4 f/w.

My thoughts are these. If I am getting firewire flow interruption from the Dell fan/s switching ON/OFF, what do you think about having some form of "smoothing" item [if these lumps are that!] as well?

The best I've got from Dell has been to upgrade my BIOS [I've read the issues on DellTalk concerning BIOS upgrade issues - ah no thank you!]; being told that I could then alter in the BIOS the Power Management so that the fan/s don't come on so often - meaning during a "lucky" period I could get uninterrupted video flow through the f/w port! Hmmmm.....

This still does not address, what I see as being the fundamental issue: There is definitely a leak or effect on the video flow through the f/w when the fan/s switch ON/OFF. And what I've got back from Dell is the option to alter the BIOS Power Management to put this procedure, in effect, to sleep or at least nod-off.

Okay - Going back to "Heating" basics, I've noticed that since I put a Maxtor PCMCIA f/w card adaptor in slot 2, and on removing same card, it has "stored" a lot of heat, and this heat quickly dissipates in the open air. This Dell PCMCIA docking area is right next to the fan unit. Well, this could be a good thing, but at the same time this card actually "blocks" any extra cooling air coming into the Dell. Yes, there is a large inlet directly next to it - but that inlet is physically "after" the card and as such the air drawn into the machine misses the PCMCIA card itself. In any event, the management of cooling is complex and uses combinations of thyristors & algorithms to adjust the air flow using 2 fans in various combinations AND variable speeds. IMHO the Dell cooling system is something that has been thought out to do its thing in a subtle and complex way.

Bottom line: The fan/s will and need to switch on/off when the machine needs it to happen. So be it! The switching on/off of fan/s interrupts the firewire flow. I have not been offered anything from Dell that explains this phenomenon, other than to alter the powering-up procedure of the fan/s in the BIOS. IMHO, this is not a solution. I have been told by one of their technicians that,"...the issue you are facing is very peculiar indeed...".

So, VFers, if you've got thus far -THANK you.

My question is this: If I'm to live with this, do you think that some form of "other" f/w cable that may have this in-line device [as seen on Canon f/w cable], which maybe a "smoothing" process will knock out the tripping up of the video flow?

Presently, if I Print To Tape while the Dell is going through a no-fan/s period, PTT is successful. Likewise, if I can catch the Dell when it's only got one fan working, success. - This is not a way to carry on!

As always,

Regards

Grazie

Comments

laz111 wrote on 10/4/2002, 7:04 AM

Grazie, you've certainly done a lot of research, but with little or no support. Judging by what forum users from elsewhere say Dell is not one of the best support teams there is.

What processor is on your pc? If it's AMD (same as me) then these tend to run hotter than Pentiums. What I'd suggest is trying a bigger/faster fan near the PCMCIA card (if that's possible). You can pick these up from pc fairs for a few pounds. I don't know what else to suggest except for opening the fridge door when your dv editing ;o)

Good luck.

Grazie wrote on 10/4/2002, 8:03 AM

Thanks, Laz.

Yup - I'll keep the beers company.

Seriously, I've tried so hard to get across to Dell that they have, IMHO, an inherent "leak" to the firewire port, although they have spent many hours on researching and devising a truly amazing cooling profile. It's as if they have an end-user - me - not being able to be heard by those who matter. Was it ever thus - eh!

Sooo.. it wasn't my Dazzle; it wasn't WinME; it wasn't my Maxtor drives. What it has come down to is a rather sophisticated way Dell ensures cooling throughout a very compact space. THEN someone like me sticks in a PCMCIA which becasue of what it does - firewire flowing data - it gets hot and puts the Dell into "Cooling Central Station" mode, just becasue it can! However the "leak" is still within the beast. If only I could separate this firewire flow away from the Dell itself.

Laz, putting a fan near to the PCMCIA card is proably the only thing to do - but it won't get near to solving this "leak". Hey Ho. I'm on Pentium III 1ghtz.

Grazie

discdude wrote on 10/4/2002, 9:06 AM

I'll take a stab at helping you.

If your cable looks like this, those two lumps are ferrite cores. Ferrite cores reduce RFI (Radio Frequency Interference). They do not act as capacitors. Basically, they "clean" rather than "smooth" the signal. However, I would think they are largely unnecessary for a short cable run.

If you want, I'm sure you can buy the cable at an authorized Canon dealer (they may have to special order). It is a heart stopping $50 at Canon's own accessory annex:
http://www.canoncompanystore.com/cgi-bin/annex.storefront

As far as your fan problem goes, I will recommend the following documents:

1) The service manual for the Inspiron 8000. It will tell you how to disassemble your laptop in case you want to perform some "surgery" on your laptop.
http://docs.us.dell.com/docs/systems/plav/remove.pdf

Resist the temptation to simply yank the power to the fans since the fans cool the processor (through a heat pipe).

2) The second is a little document on power conservation. I recommend you set you machine to "Always On" and plug your laptop into the wall while you PTT.
http://docs.us.dell.com/docs/systems/plav/power.htm#1099298

Also, why are you using a PCMCIA firewire card? Is it because you are using an external firewire HD and you need an extra port? If you need extra ports, ever think of connecting a firewire hub to your built-in port?

Grazie wrote on 10/4/2002, 10:56 AM

Thanks for that Discdude

1. Yep that's the cable
2. Done the "Always On" option now. I always use the laptop in the port replicator which is connected to the mains. - I will report.
3. I was told that I could not "hub-up" to the Dell Video Qualified port. It could only be used as a video streaming port. Or have I been hoodwinked again!

4. Have a look at this: http://www.rme-audio.com/english/techinfo/hdsp/notetune.htm

It talks good sense about ACPI and the callout the CPU makes.

Thanks again

Grazie

cococoop wrote on 10/4/2002, 10:56 AM

Grazie ,,, I also don't think the different firewire cable was the fix ,, I think you just got lucky. If you are running Windows XP, you can create a different hardware environment and disable the ACPI function and have your cooling fans always on ,,,,just a thought..... Tom

Grazie wrote on 10/4/2002, 11:10 AM

yes I agree with you - it couldn't have been the cable because I didn't have one. I saw this as an accessory - I used a straight Belkin 4-4. All I was asking is if the Canon accessory would make a difference. And yes Tom - if I could take a hammer to the ACPI I would!

And yes, if I wait for 1 fan to remain on, I have successful PTT. WHAT A WEEK TO GIVE UP SMOKING!!!!

Grazie

Chienworks wrote on 10/4/2002, 12:26 PM

I know you've already thought of this one, so i shouldn't bother, but i will anyway just to remove any nagging doubt in my own brain ...

Have you actually tried PTT through the built in Dell 1394 port direct to the DV camcorder? The signal sent to the camcorder is a digital video stream, which is what Dell seems to claim that port is good for. You could try switching the camcorder to the built in port and the external drive to the PCMCIA port. Or better yet, render a sample .avi file to your internal hard drive (long enough to represent typical work, but short enough to fit in your available space) and try PTT through the internal port without the external drive attached.

I would also suggest borrowing a firewire hub from somewhere and testing it on your internal port. It might just work despite Dell's negative propoganda. Personally i would say that the fact that your external drive works on that port indicates that Dell is doing some hoodwinking.

discdude wrote on 10/4/2002, 1:57 PM

The "Dell Video Qualified Port" ?!?

I think they're selling you a big stinking pile of BS. If it adheres to the IEEE-1394 standard, you should be able to stick a hub on it.

The only thing I can think of is that the port your Dell is the 4 pin variety rather than the 6 pin variety. The only difference among the two is that the 6 pin can carry power (30V DC) along with the data. I guess if you had a "bus powered" hub, you might run in to trouble. However, all Firewire hubs I have seen are powered (e.g., you plug it in the wall). USB hubs are a different matter though.

Utimately, whether or not a hub works is probably academic.

The internal fans are the problem. I would use the I8kfanGUI you mentioned in a previous thread to adjust it so your fans are always on.

Grazie wrote on 10/4/2002, 3:31 PM

Discdude - This is for you. If you see any clues of BS please tell me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Begin Copied Section
"Qualified IEEE-1394 Devices
Though several different devices support the IEEE-1394 standard, Dell Computer Corporation has qualified the SCI FireStar II adapter for use with digital video cameras only.

Installation and support of devices other than digital video cameras is on an individual manufacturer basis.

IEEE-1394 devices that are not externally powered are not supported on DELL system platforms.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quality Concerns
Video is transferred isochronously through the IEEE-1394 adapter to the PC. Using this transfer mode means that information not arriving in a timely manner will be discarded to allow for new content to arrive at its correct time. Several factors can potentially affect the quality of video content captured using the SCI FireStar II adapter. These factors are:

Available system resources
Operating system and application priorities
Storage device capabilities and capacity
Because of these factors, Dell Computer Corporation recommends the following to ensure the highest possible quality:
When capturing video content to a PC, limit usage of the PC to capturing video only.
Do not capture video to a removable storage device or an IEEE-1394 storage device directly.
Ensure presence of adequate storage to capture video content.
Do not perform stressful operations on storage devices while capturing video.
Limit usage of exterior communication to limit priority interruptions by devices or applications. "

>>>>>>>>>>>>> end of copied section>>>>>>>>>>>

Regards

Grazie

discdude wrote on 10/4/2002, 4:11 PM

First, I must admit having to look in the dictionary to see what "isochronously" meant.

Looking at Dell's info about the built-in Firewire adapter, I have to say that Dell never states that their built-in adapter can't work with non-video camera devices, rather they never "qualified" it to work with other devices.

This just says to me that if you call support with a problem with anything other than a video camera, they won't help you.

Nevertheless, this is just skirting the main issue which is that the cooling fans disrupt the firewire port.

On on related matter, I found out that there is a diagnostic for your firewire port. Might as well rule out any problems with the port itself. I had to cut and past the instructions since Dell doesn't allow direct linking for some wierd reason.

Dell Dimension ResourceCD Version 2.00 and 3.08

Insert the Dell Dimension ResourceCD into your CD or DVD drive.
The Dimension AMF ResourceCD window appears.
Click Next.
From the System Model menu, select All.
From the Operating System menu, select All.
From the Device Type menu, select Controller.
From the Topic menu, select Diagnostics.
A list of available diagnostics appears.
Click SCSI 1394 Adapter Card Diagnostics.
The Dell Computer Self-Extracting Diskette Set window appears.
Click Setup.
Follow the on-screen prompts to create the driver disk.
Once the driver disk has been created, click the [X] in the upper right corner to close the Dell ResourceCD Menu.

Dell Dimension ResourceCD Version 1.74 and 1.75

Insert the Dell Dimension ResourceCD into the CD or DVD drive.
The Dell Dimension ResourceCD window appears.
Click the Right-Arrow button on the menu.

The Main Menu appears.
Click the Diags folder.
Click the SCIDI folder.
Click the file Scidiag.Exe.
The Dell Computer Self-Extracting Diskette Set window appears.
Click Setup.
Follow the on-screen prompts to create the driver disk.
Once the driver disk has been created, click the [X] in the upper right corner to close the Dell ResourceCD Menu.

Performing Diagnostics

Insert the SCI 1394 diagnostic disk into the floppy disk drive.
Click the Start button, click Shut Down, click Restart, and then click OK.
After the system restarts, the SCI 1394 diagnostics automatically begins to test the card.

When the test is complete, the A:> prompt appears.
If the SCI 1394 is functioning properly, the diagnostics will display the word Pass. If the SCI 1394 is malfunctioning, the diagnostics will display a Fail result. In the event that your card fails diagnostics, refer to the E-mail Dell section below.

Grazie wrote on 10/4/2002, 11:35 PM

Discdude - truly, thanks for your comments and recognising the frustration I'm having, and appreciating that "the main issue which is that the cooling fans disrupt the firewire port." is truly at the core of this thing.

Thanks for appreciating the predicament vis-a-vis "non-qualified".

I would dearly like to sit down with Mr Michael Dell and one of his engineers and "explain" this. Does anybody have any influence in this? This can not be beyond the wit of man or womankind to get this fixed. It is as if current gets momentarily diverted from the 1394 PTT process to switch on the fan/s ON/OFF.

Yes I'm up for running a diag on anything - but the fan/s work and so does the 1394. There is a momentary "tripping-out" of the procedure due to the cooling system nudging into the act.

Another thing is that using a piece of s/w like fanGui will only allow me to set a multitude of fan/s ON/OFF and independantly set rpms. It will still give me fan/s switching - it won't cessate the "tripping" of the 1394 process - yes?

Oh, I run an Inspiron not a Dimension as per the download you kindly included in your reply - do you think this will make a differece? Anyway I believe I've still got the CD diag disc. I got the laptop in March 2001 so it's going well in all other departments.

Discdude and others thanks so far.... I wish I had better news to give y'll!

Welllll I suppose I have. Being involved in the arts all my life and have been involved in the scoping and drafting of potential arts activities in my area of NW London - we now have the go ahead for the re-development of Wembley Stadium - something very close to my heart - Arts Trusts and Arts in Schools etc etc. So that's cheered me up. Have a nice weekend Guys 'n Gals....

Grazie

discdude wrote on 10/7/2002, 11:40 AM

You said: "Another thing is that using a piece of s/w like fanGui will only allow me to set a multitude of fan/s ON/OFF and independantly set rpms. It will still give me fan/s switching - it won't cessate the "tripping" of the 1394 process - yes?"

Looking at the fanGUI FAQ (http://www.diefer.de/i8kfan/faq.html) it seems like you have the option of turning the fans on and off manually through the "Direct Fan Control" dialog. Or you could purposely set the temperature controls to a very low temp (say 30 or 40 degrees C) so the fans "trip" before you print to tape, rather than during. Basically, you should try to make it so the fans are always on, not switching on and off.

In any case, I would download the program and try fiddling with the settings. Also, I would try the lastest BIOS for your laptop. I read through the readme files and their seems to be lots of fixes especially for USB.

Grazie wrote on 10/7/2002, 11:57 AM

Thanks DiscDude...

Fangui tried. Can't make the fans do what it says it can. FG also momentarily freezes up video and meece control. Sooo... I've fiddled with it.

As to updating the BIOS, I've read some horror stories on DellTalk from Inspiron users. Uggh!

Are you suggesting USB Out rather than firewire?

Thanks DD

Grazie

discdude wrote on 10/7/2002, 1:52 PM

You wrote "Are you suggesting USB Out rather than firewire?"

No, not really. Both Firewire and USB use the OHCI interface, so a fix for USB could potentially impact Firewire or vice versa (probably not though) .

Still, I noticed that the following BIOS's fix these "issues."

A20 - Fixed issue in which the fans may remain on high speed constantly.

A17 - Fixed audio stuttering heard when the fans turn on or off while playing music or videos.

In addition, the fanGUI FAQ mentions a BIOS upgrade if the mouse freezes.

What version of BIOS are you running now? Also, what kind of problems have you heard about the new BIOS's?

Grazie wrote on 10/7/2002, 4:16 PM

DiscDude,

Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

"A20 - Fixed issue in which the fans may remain on high speed constantly." I don't have this problem. Fan/s behave independantly as they should and at different speeds.

"A17 - Fixed audio stuttering heard when the fans turn on or off while playing music or videos." Don't have this problem. Audio not effected by fan/s switching on/off

"In addition, the fanGUI FAQ mentions a BIOS upgrade if the mouse freezes." Yes it does "mention" a BIOS but as far as I can tell it does not single out the BIOS. In all other respects the mouse does not momentarily freeze.

"What version of BIOS are you running now? Also, what kind of problems have you heard about the new BIOS's?" - Hmmmm....I'm on BIOS A09. Try this link for starters, regarding the latest BIOS's... I really don't wanna go down this route:

http://delltalk.us.dell.com/messages/overview.asp?page=1&name=insp_bios

I can also "QUOTE" a videographer's experience who is on A10 [his set-up is almost the - note what he says about Dell being [then] up to A17 [almost the same spec as mine] still have not cured the problem. Oh yeah, this is where I got the FanGui hint from:-

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote begins
"I bought an Inspiron 8000 1000UT way back in May and have no complaints with Premier 6. It crashes but no more than it does on my desktop machine. My Inspiron runs WinME, has 256MB memory and an nVidia GeoForce 32MB graphics card.

However there are big problems getting the computer to export video to the camcorder via the IEEE port. Unbelievably the data stream is interrupted for a second or two every time the cooling fans switch on or off. I even bought a separate PCMCIA IEEE card but this is affected in exactly the same way. If you look at the Dell Talk Inspiron BIOS forum you will see comments from loads of dissatisfied users http://143.166.82.134/default.asp?fp_id=6

My solution to the fan problem was to use a simple utilty which gives manual control over the fans. Setting both fans to full speed before exporting to tape worked for me. My Inspiron has the original BIOS revision A10, Dell are now up to A17 yet don't seem to be able to solve the problem, or so it appears from Dell Talk. The fan utility is at http://www.diefer.de/micha_henze/i8kfangui.html

Hope this helps

Joe

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Quote ends

Oh... where did I get this from? I'll dig it out of the DVDOCtor Forum if you want me to.

Just tried Cachemanager, not good.

Regards,

Grazie

discdude wrote on 10/7/2002, 6:43 PM

I understand your hesitation in upgrading your BIOS, especially after reading the Dell support forums. But remember that these type of forums tend to over-emphasize problems since people who have no problems rarely bother to post.

Yes, BIOS upgrades are more "dangerous" than new drivers since if you mess up, the computer may not even boot. But take a look at the number of fixes found in the newer BIOS versions: ftp://ftp.us.dell.com/bios/I80A21A.TXT

For example, A18 "Optimized thermal control procedures to improve performance"

Also, the fanGUI won't even work with versions older than A08.

Yes, I understand the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" paradigm, but I would risk a BIOS update. The only consistent complaint I found about the newer BIOS's was that A21 has a nasty habit of suddenly shutting down. Therefore, A20 looks like the best choice.

If you don't like the new BIOS, you can always reflash the old BIOS:
ftp://ftp.us.dell.com/bios/I80-A09.EXE

BTW, in the days where you had to digitize analog video (which involved writing large amounts of data to the HD - way more than DV), "experts" used to recommend turning off any caching.

Grazie wrote on 10/8/2002, 12:57 AM

DiscDude,

Thanks for your polite reply. I shall consider its contents at length. Soooo... potentially having A09, ie just after A08, could very well be the FanGui "block" - maybe.

I like the idea of going with an option of re-flashing the A09, if things go awry.

Thanks for taking the time to read the DellTalk stuff on BIOSs, and the link to the BIOS updates listings - I think I've stumbled on this before. I'll re-read it.

Soooo.. I'm still in the position of playing Cat 'n Mouse with my fan/s, waiting for just one to be operating then hitting PTT. PTT does work it is the fan/s switching ON/OFF that interrupts the flow of video through the 1394 port.

Regards

Grazie

miketree wrote on 10/8/2002, 2:57 AM

Grazie,

"A17 - Fixed audio stuttering heard when the fans turn on or off while playing music or videos." OR PTT!!!!!

This sounds like it may be the fix you need!

I think you're going to have to update your BIOS to solve this one. I would have expected Dell to have suggested this first. (They may have done, but this has been going on for a while & I can't be bothered to read all the way back to day 1 to see if this is so!)

In my dealings with Computer manufacturers, (and I work in I.T., so it happens a lot) They insist on having the latest drivers & Firmware (BIOS) before looking any further into any problems you may have.

Fingers crossed.

Grazie wrote on 10/8/2002, 3:27 AM

Mike - yes Dell Support DID advise me to upgrade the BIOS for starters. I also need to upgrade nVidia stuff at the same time too. At which point I researched the Dell BIOS upgrade forum and got concerned 'bout the various problems users had had with this. Okay call me a wimp - "You're A Wimp Grazie!" - but, if there is one thing I've learnt from all this stuff is to be careful etc etc.

I'm truly interested in the A17. I did some reasearch on DVDocter Forum website where a guy, who has/had, almost to the letter, the same Inspiron setup as I, said that A17 still hadn't cut it. I don't have audio stutter so this aint an issue - BUT PTT! Now there's a thing! Can you locate this for me? I've read the Dell BIOS txt file DiscDude kindly mentioned, but don't see it explicilty saying this - I could be wrong or have not enough IT savvy to read between the IT-speak.

Mike - again thanks for this. I really want to get back to the fun part of vid-creation and all this is quite tedious. There's nothing more irksome than having a 20-45 min project hiccup on its way out via the firewire to VHS tape. Does tend to put a dampener on things - don't yer know!

Regards

Grazie

PS - "A problem shared is a problem solved" - or at least halved!

PPS - Some good news is that I've been offered 2 opportunities to 1: Have my video work "tested" by a pro and 2:Work closely with a company who are filming some COmmunity Arts activities for the purposes of making a set of videos of the initiatives. This is reeeeally exciting.

PPPS - So you see, all you VFers, having supported Grazie has paid-off for me by helping me to "hang-on" in there.

Cheers

discdude wrote on 10/8/2002, 7:33 AM

"...but don't see it explicilty saying this - I could be wrong or have not enough IT savvy to read between the IT-speak."

Unfortunately, you have to read between the lines when it comes to update logs. Many companies don't even bother to list differences/new features in their new drivers. Also, those that do have update logs leave a lot out of them.

Plus, a fix a specific issue sometime fixes other related issues (and of course they don't mention related issues). For example, ATI's Catayst 02.2 for Win2k/XP caused Sonic Foundry products to hang. They fixed the problem in Catalyst 02.3. However, in the update log, they just mentioned that a "Hanging problem with Mozilla" was fixed. I guess Mozilla is a more commonly used product than any of the Sonic Foundry products.

So when I see things like "A17 - Fixed audio stuttering heard when the fans turn on or off while playing music or video.", I think maybe it COULD fix your problem since it fixed a problem with an A/V stream being interrupted albeit not on the Firewire port. Of course I can't be sure since I don't have an Inspiron to test it on. This is something the vaunted Dell support should do for you.

However, there are multiple levels of support, even within a company. The people you first call are generally low paid script readers whose first language may not even be English (I'm not kidding). You should try see if you can elevate your problem to a "Level 2 tech." Of course, this takes a combination of skill and stubborness since the Level 1 tech has been trained not to do this. The time you waste on the Level 1 tech maybe better spent on flashing the BIOS.

Maybe I'm a little jaded or cynical but I have spent a lot of time on the phone with tech support. Oh, and anyone who complains about Sonic Foundry support, they're not bad at all, not by a long shot.

Grazie wrote on 10/8/2002, 12:00 PM

I do get stuttering when I'm playing Ry Cooder and I access the internet. The dialer DOES make the audio stutter - any thoughts on this - viz A17? I don't think its becasue the Internet dialler does not like Mr Cooder! Maybe its trying to keep in rhythm. However, DD, thanks for your well put together report and advice on these matters.

Yeah - I also thought how to get beyond Level 1 Dell support, onto the next level. Like palying a Game - DellTindeo - "You've played Super Mario, Warrior from Wherever, Red Death and Splat the Impaler. Think you're hard enough to take on DellTindeo! Think again!"

Regards

Grazie

IanG wrote on 10/8/2002, 2:35 PM

I think that stuttering's common - I seem to remember getting a similar problem with my Dell Dimension. Maybe someone in Dell doesn't like good music?

Cheers

Ian G.