flaky clients...question

DJPadre wrote on 8/2/2007, 5:15 AM

ok, weddings.. lol alright alright i hear teh moans, but heres the conundrum...

many a time a client will provide their associated materials to me after the wedding itself. this is fine if its reasonable, but after hounding them, it seems half teh clients expect me to wait forever for tehm to get themseles into gear..

Now, one client had me wait 21monuts (i kid u not) another over a yer, and on average its between 3 to 6 months that I AM waiting for tehm to provide music for their edits..

now in my contract, we give them the oportunity to provide this stuff before we even hit record. Most are too busy to want to think about music and get back to us later.
That would be fine if they actually did that though..

anywyas, it seems to be that like most humans, they dont like the idea of taking responsibility for their own actions, in turn, they bust my balls.
A perfect example is a recent couple that took 9 months to provide music, then 2 weeks later i recieve an email asking me how the edit is going. Mind you since the time of their wedding and the time igot th music an entire wedding season has come to pass.
Were talkin 45 odd weddings from Sept 06, to April 2007. Thats more than most companies do in a year... and im not cheap..

Now despite my efforts to be clear and fair in my contract, it seems these people still dont get it.

Another thing, is that i recently sent a bulk email out to all clients (BCC.. i aint stupid.. ) advising that im closing the shop until september while my wife has a baby and we reset the studio since our relocation.

Now i was expecting several congrats messages, and also expecting afew "wheres my video" messages, but at what point does one say enough is enough?
At what poitn, can a service provider tell a client to back off? Considering the lcient already has required info in writing long before they even signed or paid
At what point of harrasment does a business refuse service?
In aus, a family run business is understaood to be more of a personailsed service, and this is one reason we get hired. The fact that we dotn outsource anythign, everyting is done in house, the fact taht my wife helps out with shoots and with edits and teh fact that im here for about 16hrs a day at the least each day.

II guess my rant is that some clients (i say clients, not customers.. customers are one off, clients are ongoing) have no regard for anyone or anythign save for themselves. Fair enough they put alot of moneyu into the service, but they chose to do this on teh outset.
So what then gives a client the right to not only make me wait for them, but to then have teh audacity to complain about delays?
In australia, we have a department called Fair Trading. And i spoke to them about this and u know what, there is absolutely no protection from clients who behave this way. However, id WE are delayed, the client is protected and has the choice to take us to a tribunal.
When i called them to ask about my rights as a sole trader taking paternity leave, this is what i was told.
Business' have no protection against unreasonable clients.
Business can however refuse or delays service if its made clear as to the conditions for that (which i do in my contract) but even with this, it just doesnt get through..

what are your thoughts..

Comments

Paul Fierlinger wrote on 8/2/2007, 5:36 AM

$ 5000 per wedding is pretty much average from what I've read here and elsewhere, so you are making $ 225,000 in half a year and can't tolerate having to say once in awhile 'sorry, I'd love to oblige but can you give me another two weeks?"

DJPadre wrote on 8/2/2007, 5:47 AM

for video, $3000 yes, but not $5000
SD deliveries only though, HD add another grand, but people dont want to pay this.

if iwas shooting stills, then yes, $5k is a no brainer and quite common, in fact, its less ork, less stress, faster PP and and its all template work.
I still dont understand teh jusitification for pricing , but thats a different argument altogether

As for my own tolerance, believe me, i tolerate ALOT.. the issue is that the clients, (like any cleint) do not consider the big picture, such as how many weddings are filmed at any particular time of year.
They also dotn consider that THEIR delays also affect other clients who do the right thing.

The issue is the fact that they know the general delivery scehdule. they know how long to expect for teh finished work.
They know what to expect of me and the work itself, so why
1) hassle me for info they already have
2) harass me for work imeediately after having me wait months on end for them
3) disregard the fact that my wife is incapacitated and im on paternity leave.

am i not allowed to take some time off?

farss wrote on 8/2/2007, 5:48 AM

I've still got a job here waiting to be collected after 12 months. Zero profit in it but I'm past the point of caring about the money. If it was the customers own material it would have been landfill months ago but it's her "elderly mother-in-laws". I've rung the customer several times, thanks to CLI she knows who it is and rejects the call so I call from other numbers and she promises to ring back as she's "in a meeting right now".

All I can offer is my sympathy, I have no idea how you deal with these kinds of people, at times I feel like applying Rule 303.

Bob.

Jessariah67 wrote on 8/2/2007, 6:11 AM

Maybe you could revise your contract's timeline or payment terms to include penalties for lateness? Or a time period where the job simply expires and they forfeit their deposit? I've found that whenever money comes into the picture, clients respond with bells on.

DJPadre wrote on 8/2/2007, 6:20 AM

whats rule 303?

i had one client marry in Feb 2005, October 2005 they sent me music.. 2 cds with about 150mp3's on each disc..
i only need 8 songs in total...

i sent them a grab of the directory and asked them to circle which songs they wanted to use

3 months later i get an abusive call, so i send the same info via snail mail express.
they got it without problem

since then, they get an email every moneth.. ever since January 2006... i havent heard back from them
I wont trash the tapes yet.. coz i knwo murphys law will bring them back asking for their video as soon as i do.

another client who i serviced in Oct 2005, had her brthers wedding in March 206
I saw her and spoke to her and her husband, and her inlaws, and her parents.
I NEED the music..

August 2006 i get a text message with a list of tunes..
I need the cd coz this is all israeli music which i dont have

to this day i still dont have any music, mind u, her brothers wife sent me thieir music about a month after the wedding, got tehir dvd's in about 4 months (longform, shortform + stills)
If ne can do it (and 95% of other clients as well) why cant another?

Now, my schedule is screwed as some November weddings from 2006 have provided their music over the early 2007 season.. in turn, shifting THEIR deliveries (as my delivery time is based on when ALL materials are provided, NOT when tehy got married..
Ths is the fairest way to work, coz lets say Nov 2006 client give me music in May 2007, why shoul they then go before Feb client, who gave their music in Feb?
see where im getting at?

This puts the onus back on teh client to get their act together and for the most part it works, but its the clints that DONT follow procedure who are the first to complain... even though the Proc's are the same for everyone..

DJPadre wrote on 8/2/2007, 6:28 AM

Jessariah, everythings paid upfront. I dont hit record until they pay up

seen too many business go under with pay later policies as clients will use ANY excuse to get a freebie, be it late by one day or "i dont like it" (but we still want 20 copies) kinda attitude..

No, too many issues for that

I do have a harrasment/abuse clause though.. lol

jrazz wrote on 8/2/2007, 6:42 AM

Welcome to the wonderful world of Wedding Videography. Just grow a tough skin and be picky with your clients.

I turn down a lot of clients for this reason. If I don't think I can please them (and I am very up front with them about what is needed and expected) I refer them to someone else. Although I do not have the problem you do as I do not allow them to give me music to include in the video as they cannot (almost without exception) obtain the rights to use it (USA). Ridding your contract of that portion may save you a lot of headache and you might lose a lot of customers as well... you just have to weigh the situation and see which one is better: less stress or less money.

j razz

farss wrote on 8/2/2007, 6:56 AM

Is the problem them deciding which music or supplying their physical copy?
If the later I'd just buy a copy and give it to the client, that way you avoid the delay and are 100% cartain you're meeting the terms of your APRA licence.

Bob.

p@mast3rs wrote on 8/2/2007, 7:08 AM

"If the later I'd just buy a copy and give it to the client, that way you avoid the delay and are 100% cartain you're meeting the terms of your APRA licence."

And include a very nice surcharge at that.

DJPadre wrote on 8/2/2007, 7:15 AM

"Is the problem them deciding which music or supplying their physical copy?"

Both Bob

usually its because theyve got other shit going on in life and cant be bothered dealing with details

ive considered stopping their ability to select music, but this take power away from the client
The thing i find most disturbing is that for many clients, paying up front can be considered a loss of power on their part, and taking away their ability to choose, just hammers it power issue home. Thing is, theyre given ALL the power prior to the actual day, and despite the emotional impact of doing this, its the safest way I can work. After teh day, the only power theyhave left is whatever else they have to do based on th contract requirements.
Usualy they dont take any notice and only take action at times when it suits them.
Not one client has been consistant. with follow ups, but theyr consistan with the abuse and sarcasm. To them then its a case of being angry at themselves for overlooking what my requrimetns are (even though weve gone through everythgin at least 3 times before the wedding itself)
but still, they overlook these details and play the blame game

p@mast3rs wrote on 8/2/2007, 7:22 AM

Heres how I used to handle it.

Clients paid 50% up front and the remainder on delivery. My terms were spelled out specifically. The clients rights and responsibilities were detailed as well. If the clients failed to meet any of their responsibilities, the contract was deemed void and the client lost their deposit. I made sure I was specific before they put their name on the dotted line. I made sure that each client knew that if they failed to pay their balance they would be turned over to collections and a lien would be filed against any property or income they owned. When a new couple starts to fear that their shiny new house or car has a lien placed against it they are more apt to pay up.

I had a similar clause to your abuse clause. At no time could the client use abusive or foul language or their contract was voided and again they would forfeit their deposit.

Remind me to tell you a story sometime about what I did with this one couple who refused to pay ($6000) and how their marriage did last long at all (thanks to me and my charm). Lets just say he kept my six grand and I took his new bride. :)

jetdv wrote on 8/2/2007, 7:25 AM

My thoughts are: DON'T ASK FOR MUSIC.

Use what you want. Make sure your contract says you can. Then you can edit in the order they were recorded without waiting for "extra material". That's how we've always done it (and the music I used was royalty free).

If you don't ask, you don't have to wait. You could have had the wedding delivered two years ago.

As for the three hundred songs over two CDs where you need 8, just pick 8. Obviously they like them all or they wouldn't be on the CDs. Just pick the 8 you want to edit to.

UKAndrewC wrote on 8/2/2007, 7:45 AM

I've had similar problems but I now ask clients to pick music from online music such as quicktracks or other royalty free libraries.

I email them the links and they usually choose when they get home

Andrew

DJPadre wrote on 8/2/2007, 7:59 AM

p@mast3rs would love to hear that story mate.. many a time have i met a bride and groom and thougth to myself WTF is this hotty doing with this loser.. lol

As for payments, if i could deliver within a matter of weeks or if i only provided raw footage with a short highlights, it woudlnt be a problem. But im doign long and short form edits and everything else they ask for. (for a price of course)
The issue sint the edit itself, its GETTING TO the edit. as an example, for october this year, i already have 7 bookings, september i have 4
Now, it taks me 14 days from start to end to do a longform edit (were tlkaing fully loaded cinematics here) as well as a short version highlgihts (from material taken from the main presentaions... this saves time)
now by the time i get to the first job that was filmed for october, 56 days have already come to pass.. meanign that by the time i get to the October edit, we woudl alreayd be halfway through november (i edit everything myself due to Dolby licensing) and frankly, what some editors attempt to charge for a basic edit is ridiculous... considering their lack of skill or notion as to how to edit a story.. so outsourcing is out of the question

Jet, unfortunately like i mentioned, taking the power of choice away from the client woudl be great if we could pull it off, ,however here in aus, we dont have copyright issues with our licensing set up. The issue then is does the client go to you when you will choose for them, or do they have their favourites which company B allows them to use?
I dotn want to cut myself short, but I also dont want to take anything away fro teh cleint themselves.
Here in aus, its called "putting your client at a disadvantage", and by law, we cant do that, even if its contracted that we use our discretion, we must still at least, in all fairness, given them the oportunity to offer feedback on what were doing for them. In the end it also saves doublehanding jobs when clients say "i dont liek that song anymore"
If we get it in writing on the outset, then thats that and we can edit 9and even shoot) with their chosen music in mind

jetdv wrote on 8/2/2007, 8:03 AM

How about a compromise?

You'll use what THEY pick out as long as it's received by x date. After that point, you're free to use whatever YOU want - and get the edit done.

DJPadre wrote on 8/2/2007, 8:13 AM

thats already stipulated in the contract... but they still bitch and moan when i enforce it... in the end im doubelhandling the work becuase i might choose something that remnds her of her ex boyfriend or whatever..

blurgh.. gimme corporate clients anyday.. at least they understand the value of what we do..

Grazie wrote on 8/2/2007, 9:20 AM

The last Wedding Videographer I worked for, if I remember correctly, had a contract that was an advance of a 50% deposit with the balance having to be with him not later than 2 weeks prior for us to show up at the wedding.

This was written and signed by both parties

And guess what? He never ever had a problem!

It kinda wheedled out the "chancers". I learnt a lot from him!!!

Grazie

jrazz wrote on 8/2/2007, 9:38 AM

Patrick,

Remind me never to get on your bad side.

j razz

Coursedesign wrote on 8/2/2007, 9:44 AM

DJ,

You're saying that you wish clients would follow the terms of the contract.

How about you start following the terms of the contract yourself?

"1. No music from client by x date, company will choose suitable music from its own library. 2. Company will gladly make later substitutions at a cost of $100 per song, payable on order."

If you can't bring yourself to say this, maybe you need a business partner to handle that side.

No matter what business you're in (even with corporate clients), you will encounter people who want your company to work full time for them at no pay.

You have to be as fair to yourself as you are to them.

I had little trouble with difficult customers after I responded to their unreasonable demands with, "Certainly Sir, No Problem, Sir! That will be $200 for each minor change and $600 for each ..., payable half up front and half on delivery."

These kinds of problems are rooted in the fact that it doesn't cost the customer anything to be unreasonable. Change that, and you have your problem solved. It's worked for me, and I certainly didn't invent it.

I've seen it work in the most difficult cases in many different businesses. Just remember that the answer to any unreasonable request is, "Absolutely no problem! That will be $1000 ($2,000 or whatever you feel the work is worth), half now and half on delivery."

In practice, one of two things happen: 1) the customer says, "Ugh! I can't afford that," in which case you say "OK," and move the conversation to the next topic, or they say, "Great, I'll take it," in which case you're getting paid what you think you're worth.

Think through the written production agreement carefully based on what's happened so far in your business, and remember that a verbal agreement isn't worth the paper it's written on.

rmack350 wrote on 8/2/2007, 10:37 AM

I noticed in a Dreamweaver forum that some people charge a fee to restart a project. The premise is that if they've been delayed by the client for too long they will no longer be be able to dive straight back into the project.

Another possibility is to build a retainer fee into the contract. My logic for this would be that this allows me to opt out of other work in order to stay on-call for the client. I'd offer this as an alternative to the restart fee.

You have to give them a fair amount of time before charging such a fee, though. Perhaps you can build into the service contract a stipulation that the project duration will not exceed a certain span, or that there is a flat charge every X months unless certain very reasonable conditions are met.

It's a two way street. These can't be structured in such a way that you could profit by stalling.

Rob Mack

dand9959 wrote on 8/2/2007, 10:48 AM

I don't do weddings, but know several people who do, and many of them are struggling for clients.

And here is DJ complaining about too much work! I should be so lucky!

Reminds me of the two old ladies who meet for lunch every day at the club:
"Ugh, every day this food is terrible!"
"Yes, and the portions are so small!"

TheHappyFriar wrote on 8/2/2007, 11:01 AM

In practice, one of two things happen: 1) the customer says, "Ugh! I can't afford that," in which case you say "OK," and move the conversation to the next topic, or they say, "Great, I'll take it," in which case you're getting paid what you think you're worth.

Just remember one thing: if you don't really want to do something but don't want to turn them down (because they are a client & you want future business), make sure the price is high enough they WON'T want to pay. If you say yes & then do a crappy job then it's your fault. :)

rs170a wrote on 8/2/2007, 11:35 AM

blurgh.. gimme corporate clients anyday.. at least they understand the value of what we do..

Remember, the grass isn't always greener on the other side :-(
A good friend of mine is looking into wedding videos as a way to hold him over during the lean times in our area right now.
His complaints about corporate clients mirror yours about wedding clients.
Slow to pay, slow to deliver promised materials, always asking for a "price break, just this once", etc. etc. etc.

Mike

farss wrote on 8/2/2007, 2:16 PM

I think you've kind of hit the nial on the head. It's the nature of the business. It's always going to be a difficult business, you're dealing with people's emotions and they have an ongoing choice.
If the caterer serves the wrong caviar there might be a brief flap over it but after the event it's forgotten. This part of the event has no real deadline in the clients eyes.
You get the work because you're willing and able to suffer the dramas, I suspect if there was anyway to make it otherwise we'd all be doing weddings, and undercutting one another.

Bob.