Whoa Shaunn, let's not be too hasty here. These folks have built a masterpiece and bugs 'should' have priority over new features - else the good stuff gets overshadowed by the problematic issues. That said, the idea of folders in MP (Media Pool) was interestingly enough the topic of conversation between myself and my pal David Jon last night as we were discussing the weaknesses vs. strengths of VV!

I was somewhat incredulous that every piece of media would sit in the media pool (we frequently work with 10-15 reels - between 10-80 clips per reel) and it seems to me this oversight is perhaps because folks who work complex projects weren't considered during the early discussions of the goals of the program. I.e the media pool concept seems to be perfect from the perspective of somebody creating a bumper, or a 30-second commercial - a movie where resources (clips) number in the teens or low dozens. However, I can assure any reader that more complex projects can have hundreds of clips very easily and hence, in its current implementation, the MP sucks . . . but I'm not ready to give up just yet!

So, despite my seeming incredulous queries whereby I kept finding new ways of asking, "Are you telling me I have 'no' organization within Media Pool? "You mean there are no folders for the reels (whereby I open a folder in MP and then see just the clips within that reel)?" "Everything is just thrown together in one bin called MP?????" He kept answering (albeit somewhat apologetically since he's largely to blame for my embarking on this VV endeavor) that, "No, there is little organization."

He went on to acknowledge he often spends many minutes looking for a clip (very disruptive of the editing process as experienced editors will recognize) and off we went on to how the simple addition of folders to MP would permit editors who are familiar with their material quick access to the pertinent reel (within MP) and then (after elimating all the confusion of the other clips) select the appropriate clip to place in the movie. This seems especially frustrating since the work of naming clips for eacgh reel is done in VC (Video Capture) then all the organization is thrown away as all clips are dumped into the MP. Another point are other weaknesses, i.e. how can I sort clips in the reels by time code? Why? We frequently work our way through a reel backwards. Why? Because when you have four takes, the last take in a sequence is the one deemed best whilst filming. Hence, we mark in and out points for the last clip and then scan to the next sequence. Whenfinished, the clips are inverse time code order (backwards) so a sort by ascending timecode puts things right.

Anyway, back to the topic of folders in MP. Another friend who dowloaded VV3 seriously considered it but then decided Xpress DV 3.5 was better suited for his business has continually derided my choice of VV as "Mickey Mouse" in large part because VV has weak (nonexistent, in his words) project management. I, frankly, overlooked the weakness but nonetheless, remain satisfied with my decision - though I very, very much hope more powerful management tools are incorporated into VV . . . so I repeat, do not be too hasty to throw the baby out with the bathwater by expressing too much impatience with VV3's current capabilities and the order in which SoFo works on the ongoing effort we call VV.

I am certain the folks at SoFo have the current market leaders squarely in their sights (else why would they mention professional editing capabilities in all the VV marketing materials) when others so plainly seek the mass market, or low-end, software NLE buyer? What's more, I find it a wonder a video tool of such prowess has been birthed by a company noted for the audio-side of the industry. Having a few years of experience under my editing belt (and meals too, if you see the size of my belt) means I look with wonder at some of the ideas incorporated by SoFo. There are many examples of SoFo programmer's remarkable ability to "think around corners" by virtue of coming to video from audio - i.e. look at the way VideoFX are chained like audio processes - pretty nifty, eh? There are others. Patience pal.

John Beech

LOL my last message tone was put on purposed to get some reaction of Sofo support team to see if they have anything to say about implementing a better media management in VV3...So far almost all the discussions about this topic has been pushed to "we'll have to wait for VV4" or "Sofo stand is NOT to fix design flaws in updates".
Trust me, I love VV3 and I am a huge fan of this company. Whenever I get the change I will advertize their products to friends and in other forums.
But if you watch closely their update fix behaviour, you will come to the conclusion that it's a lost case to even hope for this to get implemented in VV3...My question is "WHY NOT?!?!"...is it too difficult?...is it a question of money? (hoping for us to upgrade to VV4) heck! even if they implemented it in VV3, I would still be upgrading to VV4 when it's out, just to show my appreciation and to support this company.

Come on let's be truthful here: it couldn't be that hard to implement a better bin management but Sofo just won't do it even if this feature has been ask by users since the product came out (dec last year) because of a stubborn carved in stone rule not to fix design flaws. So after 10 months of requesting this feature, you get the feeling that we all have to wait for VV4 no matter how much we "the users" ask for it.
I am the first to admit that VV3 is a killer video editing app as it is but some design flaws could be taken care of with updates.

I undertsand very well, that some people may think "why the heck use it if you don't like it!?!? you didn't have to buy it!!! go play with premiere then!!!" and rightly so ;)
I just think that not fixing minor design flaws in updates is a BIG mistake and sticking to that policy makes me wonder if sofo is really as cool as we picture them to be...that is my rant :)

I agree with all you said. Fixing the bugs should be a main focus. But having at least folders in the next update would be great. Soon I hope.

The last project that I worked on had 20 hours of raw video. We cut that down to 5 hours of good scenes, and the final cut was 30 minutes! We have another project almost upon us, which will be very similar. This is why I'm pleading for folders in the media pool.

I used Premiere 6.0 for the previous projects, and its management system really helped organize all the clips. This upcoming editing, I'll be using VV3c. Filming will start in 2 weeks in NY and LA.

Granted, the VV3c workflow is much better than Premiere 6 once you understand the differences. It also feels more responsive while editing and the audio capabilities are incredible.

I doubt Sofo will have another update soon. Probably have to wait until early next year.

I'll have to save my scenes like:

LA1_intro
LA2_funnyinterview
LA3_womaninterview
NY_intro
etc...


I can't wait for the next update. It's a great program.

Gil

I understand your frustration Shaunn, but lobbing grenades (OK, firecrackers) isn't a way to endear yourself - or your wishes, with those who have their hand on the tiller. I've done it both ways and carrot beats stick every time.

Because, of the two of us, I am newest to the game and hence, have the least invested in VV in time and effort (and those who used the download to play around with it and never buy, naturally have even less) you would think I'd be quickest to bolt to something else. Yet impatient as I am (ask anybody who works with me), I advocate cooling your jets and wait to see what's released before getting all wadded up over their secretiveness . . . remember, they play in a crowded pool of sharks and competitively it can be deadly to show your hand too soon in this game - much more so than penny a point bridge, that is!

Thus, please don't resort to these tactics pal. Trust me, they're unproductive (possibly counterproductive) and not worthy of you. I think it far more effective for you to explain 'why' you need these improvements. I suspect the folks who design the feature set will soon enough task the coders in charge with fixing/augmenting the very areas where the program has weakness. It's a Darwinian process and burying your head in the sand typically doesn't lead to victory. I don't think those folks play to lose, do you?

Meanwhile, since I don't think SoFo have given any indication of a perception problem (i.e. too stupid to to know it's an issue to resolve), or that a coding problem too difficult to overcome exists, let's be aware that folks who've 'not' bought into VV read these posts. I suggest we instead let them see the civility of this forum where (despite what must surely be Herculean temptations) SoFo has the wisdom to not censor us - and let that speak for VV's future.

John Beech

[Thus, please don't resort to these tactics pal. Trust me, they're unproductive]
Yeah you are right about that: what I said is harsh and appologise for that...I have a good excuse though: my fingers are faster then my brains :)

you mention about the carrot tactic...so what do you think it will take for Sofo to reconsider in doing this? I still think we shouldn't hold our breath for this feature to spontaneously appear in the next update...anyway it's actually not a big deal...

like I said earlier, I am one of those cheerleaders of VV3 that don't miss a beat when it comes to praising it. From what I observe in video newsgroup and forums, critical mass of VV3 users is almost achieved...VV4 would be THE editing app that all would be talking about in the near future.

Besides, VV3 audio tools is perfect for music/video sync and now only few "pro" features are needed to be implemented for it to be THE ONE RING THAT RULE THEM ALL! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA <---evil laugh using flange/wah wah DX sonicfoundry plug-in

Be careful Shaunn, John Beech in what you wish for. Like me being TRUTHFUL. There seems to be several Johnny-come-lately types that think that know what's "wrong" with Vegas Video and wonder out loud why some things aren't fixed. Short answer is because they aren't broken.

Media Pool for example is fine as is, in my never humble opinion. I snicker when wannabe "professional" types say they can't find their source files, why can't there be sub folders, rant, rant, rant.

Hint: If you can't fine your own source files on your computer, you need to take a refresher course on how to USE your computer. I have tens of thousands of source files and have no trouble at all "finding" them. Easily and quickly while working with Vegas Video. That isn't to say having a sub folder OPTION wouldn't be a good idea, but making it mantatory defeats the purpose of the media bin in my view which is to show what files make up your project. You should be using the Explorer tab to locate files.

As far as complex projects, I've made some running close to two hours with hundreds of source files. So someone suggesting Vegas Video is flawed or as is being limited to simple projects is just showing they didn't read the manual or really learn how to use the application.

Let me even more truthful, downright blunt. SoFo does listen to its customers. As much or more than any other software company and I've been using PC's since the late 70's, so when I say I know, I REALLY know. To begin with this forum is NOT the place to ask for new features. There is a web site devoted to that. Makes your wishes there. Further those that shout the loudest or claim to be "professional" don't get any more attention than the rest of us. In fact those claiming to be professional seem to be the least professional, and to me are seen frequently whining.

That's probably more truth than these two prima donna types wanted. <wink>

Shaunn,

The easiest way to get the Sonic Foundry project leaders to take notice of your suggestions is to visit the product suggestion page and express two things, thoroughly and thoughtfully:

1. What is it you'd like to see in Vegas (be specific)
2. Why is your suggestion desirable (big picture, little picture, etc.)

Some people prefer to simply sound off on the forums here using fowl language and derogatory comments (and I don't mean you at all) and then wonder why their suggestions aren't listened to. We're all human beings here (yes, even the programmers), and there are two things human beings want (which correspond to the above "two things":

1. We want to be treated with respect.
2. We want things explained to us that we may understand each other's point of view.

So there you go. Four things that will help your suggestion get passed on. It's sometimes a good idea to start the ball rolling here so that other users may see your idea and think, "Hey cool", and they might even help your idea take shape and mature before you send it off to the product suggestion page. Plus it gives your suggestion more public exposure. Communication, collaboration, and respect for each other's opinions is key here. Disagreement and debate can be a wonderful thing if it helps people develop new ideas, but it sucks when people start berating each other. I'm sure you can understand this. The employees here really do listen to us here. The more clearly you articulate your needs, the more likely you'll see them met.

Hope this helps,
Nick

Thanks for the tips Nick...I just sent my suggestion to Sofo.


Didn't mean to start a pissing contest so sorry again to have had made that impression. That will be the last post I will ever write with a derogative tone (for fun or seriously)...promise.

Like you said, respect is the key word here.

Shaun

Anyway....
I'd like to see folders in the Media Pool, as well.

But meanwhile, I'm using folders in the Explorer to sort my files. In fact I've devoted an entire Firewire drive to each job that I'm doing. Then I divide the disc into major files, like "Talent", "Graphics", "Pre-renders", "Voice Overs", etc.
Within each folder I make sub folders again, ie, in Talent, I'll have John, Joe and Jane, and then in those folders, further subs, ie, Bathroom, Kitchen, etc. Then we actually label the good takes. It works for me. And it's great for "Cross progam" useage. I'm in and out of Photoshop a dozen times a day with some file, title or mask for use in Vegas. Having a "universal" location is great. VV is a super program, you've just got to learn how to use it.

I am completely with Billyboy and vicmilt here. The explorer tab is where the management is. The strength of the management depends on how you manage your own files on your PC. For each project I do, I create one folder on my system with the project name. within that folder I will have 10, 20, 30+ sub folders with their own subfolders etc... If you take the time to organize all of your material for your project ahead of time and use the explorer to locate each file, you will have no complaints of the media management. Doing this also keeps your Hard drive more organized and makes it easier to use other aps for in conjunction with Vegas (Boris, AE etc...) for your media management will be the same there too. The only time I even use the mediapool is to reference what clips I am exactly using. other than that the media management is, and should be, a concern of the user, not SOFO. -Shon

I am more with Shaunn on this. Not trying to be rude, but design flaws from a user point of view ARE the same thing as bugs. I have long advocated fixing Ripple, folders in Media Pool are important to others, does it drive anyone else crazy that you have to keep highlighting a video track to make a specific cut (split in vv3 terms) on that track? How about saving keyframes? And so on.

VV3 is great and innovative.

However, what do you expect people will do when you tell them they have to wait with no definitive answer to when their problems will be corrected? Like me, they will complain!

Ripple is a well known problem. When I asked SoFo, I was told that I would have to wait for VV4 because only bugs would be fixed in VV3. I was not assured Ripple would be fixed in VV4, I was not told WHEN VV4 would be available and it has been almost a year that I have been waiting. So you tell me. How long should I wait for something that might happen?

Why SoFo is so secrative, I don't know. If I heard when VV4 is arriving I would only tell all of my Premiere, Avid, FCP friends that VV4 will really kick your butt as of #### of ####. Hehe, hurry up.

>>Why SoFo is so secrative, I don't know. If I heard when VV4 is arriving I would only tell all of my Premiere, Avid, FCP friends that VV4 will really kick your butt as of #### of ####. Hehe, hurry up.>>

I think making promises or announcements prematurely could be worse. If for some reason SoFo can't deliver by such and such date, the users would even be more pissed that SoFo didn't keep a promise.

Regarding the media management issue, my only gripe is that the folders you create in VidCap bins are not real outside of vidcap. It would be nice if the captures really ended up in those folders/bins via explorer. Right now, without vidcap open, those files end up in one big capture folder. And, if you sort them after capture, then the vidcap file is no longer valid.

Again - just my way of working...
I have created a "Capture" folder on my firewired hard drive. When I capture footage, I name the first file in each segment by it's generic title, ie, "David", or "Car Chase". VV very nicely numbers the selections (this is in a pre-log mode).
When I get to another generic scene or person, I change the top file name. Then I make the correct folder for each of the captured groups and drag them from the "Capture Folder" to their respective folders. One of the (amazing) beauties of VV is that at night I can take the Firewire drive with everything on it home, hook it up to my laptop and review and label the various takes, ie, "David 007 Honey I'm home".
By setting the preferences to show take names on timeline, VV is extremely easy to read at the timeline level.

Here's what I do. While in vidcap, under prefs, I setup a "master" capture folder. Then, since the vidcap "Clip Bins" folder is the same as the master, I create subfolders under it for each major scene or character, and subfolders under those, if needed. As I capture, I sort. If Tape A has clips from "Dave's House," I open that folder under Clip Bins, and capture directly into it, naming the files accordingly, i.e. "TAPE A - livingroom - take 001," or whatever.

All of this works great, except that all of that organization is useless outside of vidcap. In windows, you end up with only the one "capture" folder designated in preferences of vidcap. All of the captures go there.

It would be nice if the vidcap structure of subfolders were actually created in windows at the same time. In order to duplicate it outside of vidcap, where the real files are, I have to make those folders all over again, then sort the files into them. Then, if that wasn't time consuming enough, after that, if I want the vidcap file to know where the clips are, I have to go to the properties of EVERY clip and tell vidcap where the new location is. That is ridiculous.

If there is a better way to go about this I'd love to know it.

This dicussion mirrors what Insync Speed Razor users talked about for years. It was not until the 2000x version of Razor that named bins came into existance. Hopefully SoFo can get something cooked up a bit quicker :) In the case of Razor this was introduced as a long form editing feature.

In large part the editing paradigm that one comes from flavors the way you would like media pool (bins) to work. For those of us with a history in TAPE, we like to see the tape/reel metaphor carried over to the software editing app. In other words, we like bins that correspond one to one with source tapes.

The editing app can then go a step further and offer some meta layer where individual clips from various bins/reels are gathered into a logical bin/rack. So we can have the best of both worlds, correspondence of bins to physical tapes and the logical organization of like content through the meta layer.

As a long form editor you can have hundred of clips in your project. To have a single bin/pool for all of them get very cumbersome.

Chris

My point exactly actvman - a single folder for everything is cumbersome. That said, I will re-examine what BillyBoy and vicmilt have to say to see if "I" am the one missing the point . . . I've never thought I came off as a prima donna, then again, Billy Boy may of just been having a bad day. In any case, if vicmilt is who I think he is - 'he's' no dummy for sure!

More elegant/versatile/robust/stable media management is a good idea, and a very common request - this will almost certainly happen as Vegas evolves. Typically, major changes or feature enhancements (this would qualify as major) do not get released in updates.

also: if you believe any particular feature "is easy to implement", please email your resume immediately to drdropout@sonicfoundry.com!

Thanks all for your feedback- please keep it coming.

Right on SonicEPM -
ANY interactive development is terrifying to produce and deliver. Something as complex as a video editing program is enormous. It's easy to complain, and the less people understand, the more they will. I LOVE your program and am cheerfully awaiting whatever new things you can add. But - it's amazingly bulletproof, as it stands (in marked contrast to many other programs). I'd rather "workaround" for the time being and not have continual crashes. Keep up the GREAT work. Some of us not only love you, we depend on you to keep the family and staff fed.

Is the next thing coming down the pike to upgrade VV3.0c gonna be VV3.0d, or VV4?

<That isn't to say having a sub folder OPTION wouldn't be a good idea, but making it mantatory defeats the purpose of the media bin in my view which is to show what files make up your project.>

BillyBoy,

Interesting philosophy. Most of the edit platforms I've run in the past 36 years allow me to manage my media database with sorting functions,etc. Vegas does not. I conratulate you in being able to work with a Media Pool with hundreds of clips. I would prefer to be able to separate my footage into various racks and reels, depending upon subject matter...or whatever sort function I decide to use. Its neice to be able to sort all (generic water shots) into a "water rack" and then be able to see all the choices.

But that's the way I work....and BTW, I did post my suggestion at the SF Web Site....because I feel Vegas needs to be more competitive with the Avid's and FCP's in the real world....and this feature would be one more step toward that compatibility.

Regards

David

"also: if you believe any particular feature "is easy to implement", please email your resume immediately to drdropout@sonicfoundry.com!"

I've been waiting for someone to say that! :D

- jim

Some still miss my point apparently. The Explorer tab is for finding your source files. The media tab is for files ALREADY in your project. Any further sorting of the media pool is redundant. People new to Vegas Video need to break the chains that held them into a rigid way of doing things. Sometimes hard for people use to using Macs or that overblown "P" application for example. I have no problem with having a feature that adds a feature to further sub divide the media pool, I'm just saying I'd never use it because its duplication of what's already there under the Explorer tab. Also changing Vegas Video to set up folders as a requirement under Media Pool would be a giant step backward. In my opinion. <wink>