Framerates 29.970 vs 30 ?

marcel-vossen wrote on 4/7/2009, 2:40 AM
Hi all,

This may sound I'm a frigging amature, but I just never did any deep research into media formats and stuff, because I make stuff for Youtube and always used the same formats. Now I am making a high quality 1920x1080 videoclip that might have to be used for TV someday I hope, so I want to do it properly.

I am in a PAL country, I use a Canon 5D mark II for my footage that has 30 fps in PAL

I really need to have some information on questions like :

- what exactly is the difference between 29.970 and 30 frames per second? I rendered my project in 29.970 fps because that was the default for the output format I choose, it looked fine but one piece inside the video, that I Prerendered in the same way before I put it in, was showing horizontal ugly striping in the movements. Is that because I changed the framerate from 30 fps to 29.970 two times on that particular piece?

- Why is it that when I use 30 fps as input and output, there are ugly horizontal stripes when I make stills in jpg spin in the background for example? How can I avoid that , since a jpg has no fps rate to begin with.

- Can I use 30 fps in Europe as a standard if my final clip has to be broadcasted , should my band be lucky enough to make it bigtime? ;)

- In general: If you make a clip using 30 fps input, can you just output it in Vegas as , lets say 25 fps without being punished for that in quality? Does Vegas 'convert' the material into real 25 fps footage?

Maybe someone know a really good place where all video file formats are explained or something?

Thanks a lot

Comments

farss wrote on 4/7/2009, 4:53 AM
29.970 is the correct framerate for NTSC / Region60 video. The difference visually is impossible to detect. There can be implications when processing it. It's very easy to retime one to the other which is better than resampling one to the other.

30/29.970 is a problem as it's quite difficult to convert to 24/25 fps.
You could also strike a problem shooting 30fps in a 50Hz country with flicker from lighting.

"Why is it that when I use 30 fps as input and output, there are ugly horizontal stripes when I make stills in jpg spin in the background for example? How can I avoid that , since a jpg has no fps rate to begin with."

Not certain however if the frame rate is not a multiple of the refresh rate of you monitor you can get 'torn' frames. They're only visible on that display. I could be wrong here so check frame by frame to see if they're really in the rendered output or not. If so posting a frame grab would help us diagnose the problem.

"- Can I use 30 fps in Europe as a standard if my final clip has to be broadcasted , should my band be lucky enough to make it bigtime? ;)"

NO.

"- In general: If you make a clip using 30 fps input, can you just output it in Vegas as , lets say 25 fps without being punished for that in quality?"

No.

"Does Vegas 'convert' the material into real 25 fps footage?"

It'll be "real". Will it be real good, that is the question and the answer is, no. Then again if you do hit the big time you'll have the money to get it done properly.


"Maybe someone know a really good place where all video file formats are explained or something?"

As your only real issue is frame rate I can't think of anywhere immediately without a lot of other stuff. The only reason why we have oddball numbers in Region60 is a mixture of history and technical limtations that are long past. Be grateful life is so much easier in Region50. Also rejoice that you may have missed the 'excitement' of dealing with interlaced video.

24fps and 25fps is so much easier to deal with although 30fps is better visually in my opinion, it would be great if it wasn't such a PIA to convert to 25fps.

Bob.
LarsHD wrote on 4/7/2009, 6:47 AM
Well, I use a 5D2 as well... I just finished a 3 minute thing here and I have used Vegas to make it into 25... It did work. but it was a rather civilized ting about architecture and no fast motions etc.

There were many scenes that worked perfectly. And there were a few scenes where I simply had to re-think and change ( a car coming in from the left - changed it to the car coming at a distance towards the camera instead, etc).

A 5D2 camera and dependning on it to every day produce 100% acceptable broadcast quality 25 fps footage for daily? Not a good idea... Actually an impossible idea.

But being prepared to make the content fit the 30 > 25 process, yes it is possible to do good things. In a controlled and flexible production envirnoment...

I would exclude fast sports... Chess would work well... Motor sports not so ideal... Architecture very well, some fashion too.... Nature...

5D2 and being prepared to find alternative solutions can work real well... In fact from an image quality point of view it looks better than dedicated video cameras 2-3 times the price... The 5D2 can produce stunning image quality and be a very creative and interesting tool.

But it is not a "normal" video camera and one cannot expect to use it in the same way or get the same results. But if you find the niche were it does work, you can do really nice things with it. Even 30>25.

If you want to achieve a real high end result, maybe having someone with expensive hardware like Snell-Wilcox stuff etc do the conversion for you?

http://www.snellwilcox.com/products/conversion_restoration/products.php

I'd like to see the "Alchemist" to be integrated in Vegas 9...

But first, try it in Vegas and see if scenes that simply don't work out can be changed for something else...


Agree Bob...?


Best,
Lars
farss wrote on 4/7/2009, 2:26 PM
"Agree Bob...?"

Pretty much so.

Bob.
marcel-vossen wrote on 4/7/2009, 3:03 PM
Thanks guys!

So if I understand correctly, the 5D mark II is actually designed for Region 60 use more than it is suitable for europe ?

I must say, I have made this videoclip and it looks great on my computer screen apart from the part that I rendered 2 times. But then again I havent played it on a TV.

Do you guys know what would be a typical format that the pro's use on MTV for broadcast in Europe? What resolution, format and framerate?