GH1 AVCH 5D 7D QT Cineform and Vegas

willlisub wrote on 12/30/2009, 1:02 PM
using Vegas 9c pro in Win 7.

Just did some color tests to match the 3 cameras. 5D, 7D, and GH1.

One of the test I used was Cineform's neo Scene. It trans code fine, but it truncates the rgb color space to 15-235 (?) instead of keeping it at 0 - 255. as has been already discussed elsewhere in this forum. Can't find a way to change it from neo scene.

If I bring the .(mov) 5d and 7d files directly into Vegas, the histogram show 0-255 being filled.
If I render out via AVI using the ciniform codec, from within Vegas and bring back into Vegas it show 0-255 on histogram.

I'd like to always work in 0-255 and make my decision what color space on the output render. So bringing clips in and render from Vegas to Cineform seems the best fit, (although I'd miss the batching and simplicity of neo scene.

However, my blip is the GH1 files don't play nice with Vegas. They jump back and forth on play back and when rendering from 0-255 and 15-235. Files are unusable directly in Vegas. Neo Scene works, but only outputs to the 15-235 space.

Anyone know of a work around for this problem or maybe a better methodology.

Comments

David Newman wrote on 12/30/2009, 8:16 PM
CineForm NeoScene is correct when is places black at 16 and white at 235 when decoding within Vegas, as that is what Vegas is designed to do. While be might not all agree, that is what Sony thought was best. If you place the same AVI in VirtualDub or AfterEffect is places black at 0. So if we did the wrong thing in Vegas, all other tools will clip shadows and highlights.

Read more here:
http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/colorspaces/colorspaces.html

David Newman
CTO, CineForm
willlisub wrote on 1/1/2010, 6:27 AM
Dave, what's the difference when I render out a 5D QT file from Vegas (that's still at 0-255) and I use the Cineform Codec and when I transcode with NeoScene?

From within Vegas, the Cineform Codec leaves the levels at 0-255 for the 5D .qt files. The originals and the Neoscene files at view differently in Vegas and they output differently using Cineforms codec.

Wouldn't it be possible to give us a choice in NeoScene as to truncate or not?

I'm sorry if these aren't intelligent questions, but I just don't seem to get it. I'd much rather edit in 0-255 and make the decision on output whether to go 0-255 or 16-235.
David Newman wrote on 1/1/2010, 9:50 AM
16-235 is not truncated, it is preserving all the shadow and highlight details from the Canon cameras. Use the the Studio RGB to Computer RGB filters, if needed (but those levels with be incorrect for many exports.) The Canon files have an odd YUV encoding, causing problems with many tools, the CineForm conversion fixes this. YUV is standardized at 16-235, we use the 10-bit processing to map the Canon's 8-bit 0-255 to 64-940 in 10bit, without loss, standardizing the output. Help for mixing Canon DSLR sources with other cameras.
willlisub wrote on 1/1/2010, 2:40 PM
I still don't understand.
Neoscene preserves all the data, but when I view the original 5D .mov file in Vegas and pull in the NeoScene file, they show different on the scope and they look different. The image loses a little of it's dynamics.

When I render out the 2 different files from Vegas and bring them back into Vegas, I get two different files (actually the same as were in vegas, 1 at 0-255 and 1 at the 16-235). They look and are different. I'm making the assumption that the dynamic range of the file has be altered (truncated and squashed).

Sorry for being thick headed, but I just don't get it.

handleyj wrote on 1/5/2010, 6:41 PM
Dave,

Thanks so much for posting that link! Like willisub, I was going crazy with the color shift I saw on the preview in Vegas (Panasonic GH1 here). Glenn Chan and the Vegas color corrector cleared it right up.

I do have one request though, with the proliferation of web video, I would prefer to work the other way around. Meaning to convert in Neo Scene to Computer RGB for that as my main output, and then have to add the Computer to Studio filter for those very rare times when I would render for something else. So it would be nice to get a checkbox in the app for that.

But for now, I'm happy! Thanks again.

-joe
David Newman wrote on 1/5/2010, 8:04 PM
Joe,

Many you could help willisub?

Unfortunately, that control would break every other video tool, just to make Vegas look contrasty, which is actually wrong for Vegas. You purchased a studio-level RGB tool in Vegas, there are advantages to that. Of course a Neo HD use could use First Light to do studio to CG RGB shift.

willisub -- the Canon cameras are flags with a non-standard YUV range, we fix that without loss. While it looks different in some NLEs, the CineForm output is correct in all video tools (including Vegas.) When the Canon DSLR came out many NLE vendors had to tweak there handling to correctly map the cameras output to the right black levels For many users NeoScene/NeoHD solves the potentially clippy nature of the Canon cameras. http://www.youtube.com/theneoscene

David