--- Hard Drive Re-Organization: Advice Needed

Soniclight wrote on 4/28/2007, 8:33 PM

Hello,

File importance has changed since I first built and set up my Pentium D 2.8 Ghz, SATA/2, 2 Gb DDRM, XP home system. Vegas 6 and related video files -- some having to be uncompressed .avi have taken greater importance, I want to improve performance overall which includes helping Vegas work at its best.

I'm neither a newbie nor a pro, but I know two things:

A) System and multimedia file volumes should be on separate partitions,-- preferably separate disks (the latter being why I wish to re-organize).

B) The fastest part of the drive is the outer edge due to simple law of spin-physics.

Before getting into the partition details, here are my main concerns:

1. Potential Vegas Problem?

Will Vegas and each project's Media Manager recognize its related files on a specific letter partition (i.e. D:/) --- even if moved to another physical disk but retaining the original drive letter assigned?

Meaning: Is Vegas dependent on recognizing files according a hard disk's MBR and 0 track etc. or is the drive letter be sufficient?

2. Is It Worth It?

Will re-organizing disks and partitions make any real and valuable help-Vegas-along performance difference?

The first is the most critical issue for there is no sane way I know of to search and replace hundreds of files one by one for every project if Vegas can't find the files automatically.

The second is the reason for considering this re-organization, but pointless if the first issue turns into a nightmare.

______________________________

What Is & What Will Be (Maybe/If)

A. What Is

My old or current (and not ideal) disks and partitions are as follows:

The master drive is a 250 Gb. Hitachi Deskstar ATA 300 MB/s, 8 MB Cache, 7200 rpm.
Partitions and current used-space (first number is partition size, second free space):

C/: 40-13 free -- System and applications (incl. Vegas), docs, Net, etc.

D/: 60-28 free -- Vegas project and most, but not all media files. Includes ParticleIllusion (PI) project and .PNG sequences.

E/: 60-20 free -- Music production (Steinberg SX3) project and related files (mostly .wav).

F/: 78-14 free -- Production and test Render Files, especially large ones (some are Vegas project media files)

I have an internal duplicate of this HD for periodic disk backup (hooked up only when needed). Most of the time, I backup my files to a couple of older IDEs, one external Firewire, the others hooked up when/as needed.

This includes doing a full C:/ system backup using Acronis TrueImage once or twice a week.

So the system partition is on the outer edge/fastest part of the drive, and the largest-to-read files (but not all of them) on the innermost, slowest fourth F/: partition. And, it's all on one physical disk:

One fatal hard drive blow up, all partitions go. Not the best situation.

2. What Will Be (Maybe/If)

I have an extra unused SATA WD 80 Gb with same basic specs as the Hitachi drives that I got for extra page file, but it made hardly any difference I could sense. No point running more hardware on my system so it's been sitting empty and unused.

I would put the current C:/ on this disk, then reformat and do something like this with the Hitachi:

D/: 180 Gb -- All current Vegas and PI project files, including large production and test Renders that were on the F:/ drive. I will have to do some search and replace for the latter files, but that's manageable. Advantage: Everything in one and the fastest part of this drive.

E/: 70 Gb -- Music production (Steinberg SX3) project and related files (mostly .wav). Wav files need far less read-speed than large video files, so I see no decrease in performance occuring with these.

Since the number of partitions will have changed, the MBR, 0 Track, etc. will be different. As stated above,
this is the critical do-or-don't do . Hopefully I'm worring about a nuttin.'

If a nuttin', I would use the second twin Hitachi for ongoing backups and the IDEs for more miscellaneous stuff.

I may go buy another smaller SATA drive as an emergency system backup drive (that backup partition is currently on the second Hitachi). I also have an Acronis TrueImage file on the Firewired IDE too. I'm backup compulsive :)

______________________________

Thanks for taking the time to read this. I welcome your input, alternate advice, etc.

Comments

vicmilt wrote on 4/28/2007, 8:55 PM

A weary traveller on the same path, I must say, I think you are too lost in the forest to see the road - not to suggest, in any way, that what I offer is the TRUE path - simply one that works...

Your "A" is correct
Your "B" is unnecessary - computer technology has LEAPT forward so that issues such as placement on the hard drive are as antique as counting letters in the notes we take (yes - we used to do that - as well as have eight letter file names - and what a mess THAT was!)

Anyway - hard drive space is CHEAP man - and FAST - and certain to CHANGE yet again within the next five years. So I suggest you "go with the flow" and enjoy your work and your life...

to wit... fuggetaboutit all - buy yourself a nice 500 gig SATA drive - put everything you've got on it - in one single partition - Vegas will find all the necessary parts without any of your help, thank you.

Then sit back and enjoy one of the best things in life - editing your own stuff.

v
ps - oh yeah, BTW - don't reformat or repurpose or throw away ANY of those old original drives. To all intents and purposes, they are obsolete in 2007 (too slow - too tiny) - but they DO hold all the original data, in a format that we KNOW works. Just put them in a safe little box somewhere, and pray you never need them again.

Soniclight wrote on 4/28/2007, 9:25 PM

Thanks for reply. Sounds like my MBR etc. instinct was correct.

As to buying a new 500 Gb drive is a nice Idea, but I'm not on a company budget -- I live on a limited fixed disability income. I'm trying to work with what I have and can afford.

And I am enjoying the best thing in life... editing my own work. Hell, it's the central joy (and occasional whada?!!!@@?!! of my life :) I take better care of my system and work than I do myself, ain't that pathetic - lol.

I'm just looking to see if I can make things run just a bit better, that's all.

___________________

Any more input from others also welcomed.

Coursedesign wrote on 4/28/2007, 9:39 PM

FYI: Top quality 500GB SATA drives cost about $115.00 currently.

teaktart wrote on 4/28/2007, 10:53 PM

Where?
Can't get enough space ....it seems!
GReat price...

John_Cline wrote on 4/28/2007, 11:08 PM

www.newegg.com currently has Western Digital 500GB drives for $129 with a $10 rebate = $119 with free 3-day shipping.

Coursedesign wrote on 4/28/2007, 11:11 PM

If I didn't already have large drives coming out of my ears, I would buy Samsung SpinPoint 500GB drives for the $115 e-mail subscriber price at Newegg.

Seagates are also available at this price, even from Fry's if you don't mind dealing with them. As much as I like Seagates, I have to say these Samsung drives are very good.

Coursedesign wrote on 4/28/2007, 11:11 PM

Soniclight wrote on 4/29/2007, 12:56 AM

Good price referrals but even those are too high for my current total life savings.... $495 :) I'll have to wait a few months to save enough.

(My life may sound pathetic to most of you reflected by that figure, but if you knew where I was just a few years ago, well, I'm wealthy an' healthy in comparison now. And doing what I love, too boot. But still have to deal with what-is financially.)

______________________.

Any more comments on what Vicmitt said -- the initial topic of this thread? Thanks.

Steve Mann wrote on 4/29/2007, 1:29 AM

"Any more comments on what Vicmitt said -- the initial topic of this thread? Thanks."

Avoid partitioning at all. Partitioning was developed when the hard disk capacity exceeded the addressable space from the operating system. It does slow your I/O speeds slightly (very slightly).

You are best served with three hard disks. One for the O/S and utilities, one for the Video associated applications, and the last (your biggest) for your media files. If you're on a limited budget you can probably find someone who has replaced the 60GB drive that came with their PC for something larger and just give you the old drive. 60GB is plenty to hold windows and a bunch of utilities.

Steve Mann

Tinle wrote on 4/29/2007, 3:51 AM

"You are best served with three hard disks. One for the O/S and utilities, one for the Video associated applications, and the last (your biggest) for your media files"

Interesting suggestion - to separate the O/S & utilities from Vegas & associated applications. What benefit results from this and how?

Chienworks wrote on 4/29/2007, 4:36 AM

I can think of absolutely no benefit to having separate drives for OS and applications. In fact, it seems like it would be a bit of an annoyance having to remember change the installation path every time a new program is installed. The only reason to do this at all is if there isn't enough room on your O S drive to hold the applications. I have an awful lot of software installed and my Program Files directory is only about 3.9GB. My Windows directory is only about 2.6GB. I don't see many folks posting here about having C: drives that are less than 10GB these days.

You'd get more performance benefit by having two media drives, keeping all the source media on one and rendering to the other. Even this is only a slight benefit though. When i've tried this method i've ended up wasting more time keeping track of where i put things than i saved in rendering time.

blink3times wrote on 4/29/2007, 4:52 AM

I have 4 main partitions: OS and applications, Personal data, video edit, backup.

I split it this way so that I can do disk images of my OS and App partition. This makes life SOOOOO easy. If I have a OS failure, or want to experiment with trials... yadda, yadda, I'm free to do so with no worries. I can play all day with trials and other rubbish, and then call back one of my disk images for a fresh restart. I don't even use uninstall anymore.... the registry always gets gummed up with garbage that never uninstalls.... I just recall my prior disk image.

vicmilt wrote on 4/29/2007, 5:11 AM

SonicLight -

I reread your original post this AM and have a suggestion.

First a disclaimer - I've been "doing" computer work since the late '80s (in basic), but I'm not a hardware/OS freak. I just bull my way through what needs to be done, to get to the "good part", i.e. - the editing. So I can't guide your process.

But if I had two 250 SATA drives and an 80 as well, here is how I'd set them up.

1 - 80gig for Windows and all applications - single partition and nothing else on this drive (no email or games or junk)
2 - One 250gig (one partition) for all media - organized using folders, rather than partitions - I separate by job folders
3 - Second 250 for "test renders" and to archive "non-video" elements (including a backup of your system files).

Your video elements are already archived in the original tape that you shot - while I wouldn't relish totally rebuilding a complex edit - if I were watching every MB because of budget - there is no reason to backup original video files - renders - yes, but original media -no.

I think your backing up of system on a weekly basis is a bit overdone, but that's an opinion - my fear is that you are obsessing too much over the details of computer management and avoiding the beauty of computer editing.

Now - how to get from where you are to my above suggestions? There I can't really help, but I think most will agree that you've got the right tools, but currently in the wrong places.

The computer setup you describe is wonderful and fast - faster, in fact than any "tweaking" you may do will help. If you are still working in SD it's all you need. Once you move to HDV, it's still all you need. At that point you'll want to upgrade your Vegas to v7 which screams through M2t files, pretty much in realtime.
So you are set for quite a while to come.

Best of luck on this most tedious and terrifying project - but you can do it. And yes - do it. Having all your stuff one one drive is not only counterproductive (system and application drives should be physically different - partitions are not the same) - but you are correct - a single crash will end your editing career. Having your data and media on a separte drive will really insure your safety from physical and viral harm.

v

Tech Diver wrote on 4/29/2007, 6:31 AM

Slightly OT, but one other issue to possibly consider if you buy a hard drive is the physical environment. I went with Seagates because they withstand 63 Gs operating shock and 350 Gs non-operating shock. My video editing equipment is located near a suburban commuter rail line and vibration is an important issue when it comes to precision equipment. Most drives are pretty good when it comes to non-operating shock but often do not handle physical shock well when running.

Chienworks wrote on 4/29/2007, 8:35 AM

I'll second the nod for Seagate as well. After decades of being a die-hard WD supporter, in an emergency i had to pick up a Seagate a few months ago. One thing i noticed almost immediately is that it runs very very much cooler than the WD drives. Once WD got above 100GB or so their drives started getting worryingly hot. While i've never had a problem with them yet, i would imagine that such excessive heat can't be good for long term reliability. I've picked up 3 more Seagates in the 250 to 400GB range now and they're all excellent and all run nicely cool.

johnmeyer wrote on 4/29/2007, 8:44 AM

Some recommendations from past threads:

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/showmessage.asp?forumid=4&messageid=367601

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=522604

Coursedesign wrote on 4/29/2007, 10:21 AM

The new Samsung Spinpoint drives are really nice also. Quiet, cool, fast, and good prices.

I'm beginning to like mine better than my Seagates, and judging from the massive positive feedback on them on Newegg, I'm not alone.

Who'd a thunk?

Soniclight wrote on 4/29/2007, 12:34 PM

Still groggy-brained from night-owl life/schedule, but read all of the posts since my last visit and I really appreciate all the feedback. I'll return when my neurons are a bit more alert :)

I do however feel the need to re-include the primary concern as stated in my first post before I digest and decide on all your feedback -- since it would involve a different drives/partitions layout.

So here it is again:

1. Potential Vegas Problem?

Will Vegas and each project's Media Manager recognize its related files on a specific letter partition (i.e. D:/) --- even if moved to another physical disk but retaining the original drive letter assigned?

Meaning: Is Vegas dependent on recognizing files according a hard disk's MBR and 0 track etc. or is the drive letter be sufficient?

__________________

If necessary, see original post for old to new re-organization plan (new would have less partitions, so different MBR, 0 track, etc. will occur). But the short version is that:

--- Vegas projects and all dependent media files in a drive by the same drive letter (D:/) name to help Vegas remember their original locations.

--- But this D:/ would now be a single partitioned disk, or the first of two on that disk (not the 2nd on a drive of 4 partitions as is it is right now).

And again, I don't have the funds to go out and splurge on new disks either. I should have enough as-is (3 SATA: 80, 250, 250).
Thanks.

Chienworks wrote on 4/29/2007, 1:21 PM

Vegas only cares about the pathname, starting with the drive letter. And even then if the letter changes it only takes a few moments to point Vegas to the right directory and it finds all the files and rebuilds the project from the new path.

johnmeyer wrote on 4/29/2007, 1:28 PM

Is Vegas dependent on recognizing files according a hard disk's MBR and 0 track etc. or is the drive letter be sufficient?

Nothing except viruses and a few advanced disk utilities ever look at MBR. Everything else is based on path and drive letter.

douglas_clark wrote on 4/29/2007, 1:40 PM

Vegas only looks at the drive letter. If you move "D:" to a different physical disk, Vegas won't have any problem, as long as you fix the drive letters before starting Vegas. Just use Windows Computer Management, Disk Manager (right click on My Computer) to reassign drive letters after you move things around. I have an "L:" (library) drive for all my stock music and video, which I've had to move several times to larger disks as the collection has expanded. Likewise a "J:" (as in jpeg) drive for my digital photos, moved twice to bigger partitions, renamed to J each time. All my video projects are on my "V:" drive (2 x 180GB SATA in RAID 0 array). I use other older drives for project backup when I need space on V:.

On you system disk, make a 20 GB C: partition for Windows & programs, and the rest of that disk a separate partition for data. It's easier to make backups that way. Make regular image backups of your Windows partition (when things are working well) so you can restore it if Windows get trashed by some bad installs, virus, etc.

Disk access on the outside of a drive is a bit faster than on the inside, making the first partition a bit faster, and the innermost partition slower. I use inside partitions for backups, and outside partitions for current work. But as Vic said, it ain't really worth the effort to worry about it. If you are an optimization freak like me, then read Martin Walker's article on partitioning hard drives, in SOS. (It's relevant to musicians running lots of samplers, synths and effects in real time.)

If you really want one big drive, XP allows you to attach additional drives/partitions as subdirectories on an existing drive letter. It's called mount points, and done in Windows Disk Manager. Then they all appear to be on the same "drive" to Vegas. See for example PC Today article .

Soniclight wrote on 4/29/2007, 4:36 PM

johnmeyer and Douglas Clark,

OK, thanks for extra and experienced input. Sounds like I'm worrying about nuttin' -- that's a relief. I'll go ahead and do the re-organizing once I've put more thought into exact outlay since I got some good this-is-how-I've-done it views from people here.

_________________

On being a bit neurotic about all of this...

Apart from the joy of having discovered video editing and creation, I know I may sound a bit nitty-gritty compulsive. But this creative joy (making a short or longer film) is hopefully my ticket out of living way below the U.S. poverty line; at age 52 with only a fixed Social Security income, well it ain't Bill Gatesville - lol.

So a lot is riding on this rectangular box with whirring disks and included goodies. Scenes and light effects I imagined back in design school 30 years ago are becoming even more "wow" film-like, all imagineered by me --- that's so amazing and fulfilling. Magical, really.

OK, enough back-story and life journey notes
Again, thanks to all for your input and advice :)