HD Camcorder Purchase Question

elvindeath wrote on 8/1/2007, 7:09 AM
Hey all.

I've been woefully lax on keeping current with Camcorder technology. I've got a Sony DCR-DVD403 right now, but want to update to an HD unit soon. I've got a trip to Disney World set for next summer, and would love to start preserving memories on HD at least by then. My editing needs are limited, but I do take clips and put together some rather complex packages using Vegas 7.0, albeit just for family and friends.

In any event, I've been reading about some new HD Camcorders and am thinking about making the jump now, so I can have something by Christmas.

This new Canon model sounds almost perfect: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/hd-camcorders/canon-hg10-is-worlds-smallest-hard-disk+based-hd-camcorder-284706.php

This Panasonic model also sounds intriguing, but I doubt it will work for low light shooting: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/tricky-marketing/panasonic-hdc+sd7-is-now-worlds-smallest-hd-camcorder-284701.php

Can anyone point me to some sites (or offer some comments) on what I should be looking for in a "family Camcorder" ? Even though I don't have an HD-DVD burner or player (or Blu-Ray) yet, I think it makes sense to start filming now.

Here's some questions I have about Canon's units:

1. Do any of them record in 5.1, a la my current Sony DCR-DVD403 (I understand it's "faked" 5.1 ... but it works well for me)

2. Does Vegas allow editing of Canon's AVCHD recordings ?

3. How does HDD work for recording, as opposed to tape or Mini-DV ? Frankly, I hate the Mini-DVD format. It's too limiting and the compression on the recording is somewhat brutal.

4. Any insight into how the Canon unit might work in low-light or fast motion.

Any insight, thoughts or guidance appreciated.

Comments

Spot|DSE wrote on 8/1/2007, 7:24 AM
The AVCHD recording/compression is very similar on all the units, so if you're not pleased with the DVD format, there is a chance you'll not like the slightly higher bitrate card or HDD formats.
Sony Vegas will edit the Canon AVCHD if the early test media is correct. It will not easily edit the Panasonic flavor of AVCHD at this time.
Several of them have fake 5.1
HDD recording is simply storing the same digital information on a hard drive vs a tape or mem card or DVD. It's just bits, so the data can be stored on whatever device you'd prefer.
AVCHD doesn't deal with super fast motion well, but it does manage. Early tests with the Panasonic SD1 and the Sony CX7 were good, the CX7 kicked serious tail over the Panasonic, but Panasonic has already discontinued the SD1 anyway. The SD5 is supposed to be as good/better than the Sony CX7. Havent tested em' side by side yet. For what it is, the CX7 is a nice camcorder, but it's not all it's cranked up to be. AVCHD simply isn't ready for primetime IMO, regardless of what the PR might suggest.
OdieInAz wrote on 8/1/2007, 10:53 AM
I brought the Canon HV20 on my family trip to DW this spring. Reasons for buying:

1. Filter threads same as previous camcorder - can use wide angle adapter and polarizer I already had.
2. Hot shoe that mounts Rode Video-Mic.
3. Low Light capability in 24P mode (HV20 spits it out as 60I).

#3 was a real shocker! I just do point and shoot in automatic mode on family vacations. The stunning indoor shots of the Boyz inside the Buzz Light Year ride is amazing - IMHO.
riredale wrote on 8/1/2007, 5:30 PM
One of the moms on my recent France Tour had the Canon HV20, and I like it. Not so much as to abandon my little Sony HC3 and certainly not my Sony FX1, but it looks like a nice product and it's gotten some very good reviews.

If money is an issue you might want to look at its immediate predecessor, the HV10. Nearly identical but it has a very different control layout and looks more like a paperback book. I've seen specials on the Internet selling this camera for under $500.

The only concern I would have with recording to disk is the question of archiving. I came back from France with 25 HDV miniDV tapes. After pulling them into Vegas, those tapes go into storage. How would I store hard disk data? On a big hard drive? Perhaps, but I'd be leery of a single mishap wiping the drive clean. In addition I think the recent reviews say that none of the alternative recording formats is (currently) as sharp and noise-free as HDV on miniDV tape.

I personally wouldn't be so keen on low-light capability at 24fps. Other than giving rise to fantasies of being another Spielberg I don't see much practical advantage to 24fps, and there are those pesky temporal artifacts to put up with. As for low-light, I think many camcorders allow you to shoot at 30fps, and in fact the Sony HDV cameras might do it automatically; I don't remember.

In any event, this a great time to be alive. So many choices!
elvindeath wrote on 8/2/2007, 7:48 AM
OdieInAz - the Buzz Lightyear ride is exactly the level of low-light performance I need. I took my Sony DCR-DVD403 to Disney last time, and the lowlight autofocus was so poor, I basically couldn't use it. Anything as dark as Maelstrom or Buzz or even Journey into Imagination was basically worthless. This Canon unit sounds much more promising.

As for HDD storage versus Mini-DV ... permanent storage is so ridiculously cheap right now, I doubt I'll have any issue with it. I've got a 1 TB Raid mediaserver right now that I use to house my raw video footage while editing, and it works great. I back the 1 TB up to a portable HD every so often, and keep the backup at my dad's house (just in case). For me to "lose" all my video, I would essentially need to have 3 drives fail simultaneously.

I've got shoeboxes full of Digi-8 and Mini-DV and 3" DVD's that I shot. I've watched almost none of them since filming. On the other hand, the clips that I've edited onto DVD, my family watches over and over.

In any event, I agree it definately is a good time to be in the market. Whether Canon, Sony or Panasonic, they're all getting better and better every day.
OdieInAz wrote on 8/2/2007, 9:44 AM
Here is a short, about 9s clip going into BLY. Maybe my initial comment of stunning is a bit over the top - but I was amazed what the cam can do in 24P autofocus point and shoot, run and gun mode in low light.

Some of the cool shots are Boyz faces illuminated by the shooters as we ride through the attraction. I didn't include those, as not wanting to put that out on the internet.

This is the raw footage, 24P, auto mode, image stabalizer turned on. I left in the moments at the first when the autofocus is hunting for a fix.

Cheers

http://download.yousendit.com/EC2AFDA034A79698
Jay_Mitchell wrote on 8/2/2007, 11:46 PM
According to rumors at my local Circuit City store, Canon just may be releasing a HV30 in October. I would like to know when a XHA2 is coming.

Jay Mitchell

Jeff9329 wrote on 8/6/2007, 12:07 PM
There is currently only 1 affordable and really nice HDV camcorder, the Canon XH-A1.

They are currently just at $3000.

It may seem higher than your budget at first, but nothing else even comes close to it's performance.
Spot|DSE wrote on 8/6/2007, 12:36 PM
Haevn't heard anything from Canon on an HV30, but the HR10 is releasing around that time, it's an AVCHD camcorder built on the back end of the HV20
vicmilt wrote on 8/6/2007, 1:07 PM
FWIW -
I LOVE my HC3 - and am using in the current professional production that I'm involved in.

Plus it takes GREAT 4MEG STILLS (on a separate card)

and it's a rugged little bugger.

Full HDV for under $1200 bucks

v
winrockpost wrote on 8/6/2007, 2:28 PM
I'm with ya Vic,, love mine so much i bought another one a couple a weeks ago brand new online from circuit city for 750.00. , Best deck i ever had, plus its a cam,,, Outdoor stuff looks real ,real , close to our z1,,
blink3times wrote on 8/6/2007, 3:05 PM
"One of the moms on my recent France Tour had the Canon HV20, and I like it. Not so much as to abandon my little Sony HC3 and certainly not my Sony FX1, but it looks like a nice product and it's gotten some very good reviews."
=================================================

I have the Hv20 and the HC3.... I like the HC3 better.... more options, better feel to it.
riredale wrote on 8/6/2007, 9:52 PM
I just finished pulling three tapes over to my PC from the mom's HV20. Surprise! She shot at 24 frames per second. I have never edited in 24, but assume that Vegas will allow me to mix and match the 24 footage just fine with my usual 60i. Yes?
blink3times wrote on 8/7/2007, 1:53 AM
The 24P has un-flagged pulldown added, (it's 24P within a 60i wrapper) so when you capture with Vegas it will show up as 60i and not 24P.

If you want the pure 24P, then use cineform Neo for the capture and it will remove the pull down for you.
Jay_Mitchell wrote on 8/7/2007, 11:13 AM
FYI - here's how to save 10% on major purchases at Circuit City. All AAA (Auto Club) members may print out a 10% off coupon from the AAA website to use at Circuit City. It is good for all camcorders. So, $100 off on a $1000 purchase. I was going to use this to purchase a HV20 at my local store when they advised me wait until October for the next release.

Jay Mitchell
4eyes wrote on 8/7/2007, 11:45 AM
I've got a trip to Disney World set for next summer, and would love to start preserving memories on HD at least by then.I would certainly checkout the size of the Canon & Sony Units. I've found that owning a HC3 has so many benefits for family video taping compared to the professional high quality HDV cams. I know some persons that own the professional HDV cams and don't bother bringing them to many family events or certain vacations because they are simply to big to haul around. The HC3 can easily fit into a coat pocket or small camcorder bag and is similar to using a regular digital camera.