HD Camera's.... Canon or Panasonic

Streamworks Audio wrote on 9/22/2010, 11:34 PM
HI folks,

Seeking opinions.... I am looking at picking up a new HD cam. The two (I think) I have narrowed it down to are the Canon HF S20 and the Panasonic HDC-TM700.

The Canon's pluses are that it has a larger sensor and more effective pixels being used for the video image and the ability to record in Native 24p - it does not do 60p only 60i

The Panasonic has smaller sensors but it's biggest plus is that it has 3 CMOS sensors - therefore capturing more color information... it does use less pixels to create the video image (although still more than enough for HD) but I am thinking that with the 3 sensors that shouldn't be a problem.... perhaps even better than the HF S20's single but larger sensor. Also the Panasonic does not record 24p though, only 60i or 60p.

I cannot decided which is more desirable feature or spec that can deliver a better picture - the Canon with a larger, but single, sensor that has 24p recording (at 24mbps BTW). Or the Panasonic with 3 sensors (albeit smaller) that could produce better colors, but only records 60i and 60p.

Opinions are welcomed ;-)

Chris

Comments

cohibaman#1 wrote on 9/23/2010, 2:21 AM
I have the Panasonic hdc tm 700, and the video is quite astounding, filmed in the 1080 60P mode(The detail quite vivid and the motion is very fluid). The auto focus is good for doing a quick shoot, and if you plan a shoot, there are lots of manual settings to tweek, for doing time lapse and depth of field shots,as an example. Download the manual for this camcorder from Panasonic's web site to get an idea of the cameras functions. There are a couple of good web sites that go into great depths about this camcorder dealing with postives and negatives of it:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1225613

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-HDC-TM700-Camcorder-Review-37681.htm?top3

There is a fan in the camcorder that runs all the time for cooling it is barely audible, but can be heard on video when shooting in a quiet environment, but the fan noise if bothersome, can be edited out in an audio editing program. And also the decibles can be ajusted on the cameras on board sound settings. Playing back and editing 1080/60P can be a struggle if you haven't a powerful enough computer, if you want to maintain top video quality then you will definiatley need an intermediate for editing the MTS files . There are lots of info and video on YouTube and Vimeo if you type in the cameras name. I love the camera and it is quiet a change coming from my previous DV camcorder. Also I found the best price at B&H photo video, with reviews by customers who bought this camera, and the company's service is exellent. Good luck with which ever one you purchase.
Guy S. wrote on 9/23/2010, 10:37 AM
According to camcorderinfo.com, when set to 1080 60p the TM700 can resolve 900+ lines - higher than any other camera they've tested. Camcorderinfo also said that the TM700's 28Mbps 60p footage "is nearly impossible to work with or edit on a computer", so you may want to check that out first (Cineform Neo HD?).

The Canon's larger sensor may give you a shallower depth of field, and if that's a primary concern you may want to consider a DSLR that shoots HD video. I shot our last product release with the Panasonic GH1 DSLR and found it to be faster/easier/better than our Sony V1u for the type of work that I do (fast setup in tight areas, don't need great in-camera audio, don't need to zoom while filming). Even shooting at 720p the quality was better than our Sony V1u. Nikon's upcoming D7000 and Panasonic's GH2 were just announced and may be worth a look. As I implied, these cameras have limitations, so be aware of them.

Andy_L wrote on 9/23/2010, 11:44 AM
I believe the fan issue only applies to the hard-drive version of the TM700. The flash version is silent. Canon's new Image Stablizer is very, very good. I thought the Canon under the right "ideal" lighting conditions at 24p produces the best looking footage, but for everything else, esp. dark scenes and difficult light, the TM700 looks better.

Not being able to shoot 30p with the Panasonic is an issues. The files are big and processor-intensive, though certainly not uneditable on Vegas with a current fast computer.
LReavis wrote on 9/23/2010, 11:48 AM
I wasn't planning to buy a new cam, but the reviews of the TM700 were so good that I'm glad it bit the bullet and bought it - just $750 through corporate perks (details on how to get it that way can be found if you search this forum for "corporate perks").

The 3 chips and the superior resolution give me chromakeys that are much cleaner than I've ever achieved with my single-chip cameras, even though the chips were a good bit larger. Pretty good manual controls too, and they remain as you set them even when you turn off the cam - unlike some of my other cheap cams.

As for 24 p, I can always degrade the 60p down to 24p when I render from Vegas - seems to be very smooth (for that sorry 24p! 24p is great if you love seeing each individual frame during playback instead of fluid motion; but I use it for the web).

Editing? For a long time I've been using Cineform (NeoScene) to create intermediates - I never put the native MP4 on the TL for a serious project.

I do that in Vegas 9c-32, then load the Cineform clip onto the TL in 8c, which, after editing the project, I then render in 9e-64. Pure bliss - never a quirk.
Streamworks Audio wrote on 9/23/2010, 11:57 AM
Thanks folks,

Well I am reading the Camcoderinfo.com review.... seems that the Panasonic is a smart choice. I am not worried too much about fan noise really. The Panasonic has an external mic input so that could help if there is any fan noise.

I do like the 60p mode.... but would like to have 24p as an option as well.... the weird thing is that the camcoderinfo.com review says that the TM700 has 24p as well. It's not listed on Panasonic's specs.... I will have to check again. If it does then I am 1000% sold.

And as for editing 60p.... yeah I am already a Neo Scene user and transcodes all the clips from my current AVCHD cam before bringing them into Vegas.

Thanks,
Chris
Streamworks Audio wrote on 9/23/2010, 12:22 PM
Question though....

The TM700 when shooting in 60p mode uses a Panasonic modified AVC/H.264 codec. And according to the review, most software packages cannot read these 60p files. So how do you guys transcode them in to Cineform AVIs so they can be opened in Vegas (or which ever NLE)?

Cheers,
Chris
LReavis wrote on 9/23/2010, 9:38 PM
the TM700 has a "cinema mode" which, as I understand it, is 24p; but it seems to me to be a shame to lose the benefits of 60p (higher bitrate, etc.).

Vegas 9 (and, V8, too) can read the TM700 .MTS files, but - as I mentioned above - I use 9e-32 for rendering those files with Cineform before putting them on the TL.

In any case, I did not have to install any codec in order to read the files in either V8 or V9, nor do I have other than the usual MP4/AVCHD codecs installed - only Xvid, Divx, and x264. I just noticed that V9e-64 won't read the files, so I suppose that both my 32-bit versions must be using one of the above codecs.
Streamworks Audio wrote on 9/23/2010, 10:51 PM
A quick google I find...

http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/cineform-software-showcase/478705-will-does-neoscene-support-hdc-tm700.html

According to this - Windows can open the files created by the cam, as shown in the screenshot of the Graphedit. Thus Neo Scene should transcode them without any problems.

Chris
alltheseworlds wrote on 9/24/2010, 7:28 AM
I'm on Vegas 8 with a TM700 - no problems. Fantastic stabilizer - I don't need a tripod in many situations now :-)
cohibaman#1 wrote on 9/24/2010, 9:24 AM
Cineform Neo Scene does support this Panasconic model, here is the link to all the supported camcorders:

http://techblog.cineform.com/?p=2841
Byron K wrote on 9/25/2010, 11:49 PM
IMHO, The TM700 is one of the best cams in it's price range. I purchased it for $800, $400 less than the Sony CX550. Just got back from a two week trip to Japan and used the TM700 for all the videos (soon to post).

To me, the main down side to this cam is the lack of 1080p 30fps frame rate. As you can see in this video at the 6:03 faster motions recorded at the interlaced resolutions have combing if you zoom in.



I'm using a Sanyo Xacti FH1 for the static shot of the Yaguza (tower) and the TM700 is the floating cam because of it's image stabilization. This is one of the first videos I've done using the TM700 so the colors may be a little off.

Also you really need to practice and get very familiar with the menus which can be quite confusing until you get the hang of the layout. Get familiar how the manual controls work this can be a little tricky too. It doesn't work like an SLR. You access manual controls via the on screen menu button or cycle thru them using a manual button next to the lens ring.

The manual controls are not truly manual. I have issues with the aperture going back to auto mode when I want to slow down the shutter speeds for special effects shots.

Low light abilities are as good as if not better than the Sanyo Xacti FH1A.
ritsmer wrote on 9/26/2010, 1:21 AM
Amazon has TM700(32GB) at $799 and the CX550(64GB) at $999.

Since I only have the CX550 I can not compare - and can not say what you get for the extra $200 - but I can only say that the CX550 is the most useable camera I ever had.
The last 6 months I have used it for some thousand recordings - anything from downhill skiing to long series macro-shots of flowers.

Besides a great "intelligent auto" mode - ideal for "Shoot NOW" situations (and supported by a very good active stabilization (3 "gyros") - it also has manual settings for -focus -exposure -iris -shutter speed -AE shift -WB shift and external mike input.

The video quality is stunning - also in very low light situations.

The AVCHD from the CX550 (I use 17 Mbps 1920x1080 50i High profile) can be dropped directly on to Vegas timeline (I use 9.0e 64 bit) and previews at full 25 Fps (PAL land here). Keeping everything strictly 50i all the way from camera to the viewing screen I get an extremely clear and stutter-free result.

Before you decide finally for a new camera check the one-to-one comparison on Slashcam. I.e. you can easily see the difference in definition between the Canon HF 20 and the TM700 - see the ISO picture or the 1200 LUX grass down to the right... or the 12 LUX doll head...
JohnAsh wrote on 9/28/2010, 11:17 AM
The only thing I can contribute is, on the Panasonic, do test the image stabliser if you are going to rely on it.

I have a Panasonic 3CCD DV Cam and have now upgraded to a Canon HV30. The stabiliser on the Canon works very well indeed. On the Panasonic? I was very disappointed and was glad to be rid of it.
wombat wrote on 9/28/2010, 6:39 PM
I got the HDC-HS700 a couple of months ago and am delighted with it - great image quality in 50p, excellent image stabilization, ext. mic., headphone, and plenty of manual control.
I want the 50p (PAL) for posterity in certain source materials, but shoot interlace for lesser causes.
The m2ts files drop straight into the vegas 9e 32 timeline, but do stagger in preview on my aging editing computer - will get an intermediate for the time being, and build a new pc in the next few months.
Drawbacks:
- The lcd/viewfinder setup is not as high res as the equivalent Sony and Canon offerings.
- I have the hard-disk model, and you can get fan noise recorded in very low-noise situations. This is due to AGC pumping up levels, and AGC seems to be on by default in "Intelligent Auto" mode. In manual shooting mode, though, you can switch sound levels to normal, and don't have a problem.

Steve
PeterDuke wrote on 9/28/2010, 8:07 PM
How do people view their 50p or 60p HD videos on their (or other people's) TVs? Media Player?
logiquem wrote on 9/29/2010, 5:40 AM
Did you check the Pana GH1-GH2?
Byron K wrote on 10/3/2010, 9:11 PM
Here's a little video of Narita Temple and Botanical Garden. All stills and videos were shot with the TM700. No color correction to any of the clips. I may tweak some clips w/ Color Corrector (2ndary) later.



It was a lovely overcast slightly rainy day which made for some very nice shots because there were no hard shadows and high contrast situations. The TM handled the shady areas wonderfully. (IMHO).

The TM was able to handle some moderate DoF effect shots. I personally don't care for extreme DoF footage i.e. where an ant's @$$ is out of focus from it's head. (;

BTW, dont pay attention to that goof-ball walking in and out of the video, I was just experimenting w/ cheap talent (or lack there of). ((:
FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 10/4/2010, 12:53 AM
What I like about the Canon HF S20 is the touch screen functions. While you filming you can just touch the area that you want to focus or expose on and the cam does it for you. Also face detection tracks the face while you pan or walk. Even sudden backlit scenes won't effect your subject exposure anymore.
Dan Sherman wrote on 10/4/2010, 6:24 AM
Panasonic HPX 170 is my choice.
P2 cards are a tad expensive, but the camera is reasonably priced.
Incredible capabilities.
LReavis wrote on 10/4/2010, 11:51 AM
"How do people view their 50p or 60p HD videos on their (or other people's) TVs? Media Player?"

I burn data DVDs for playback on computers when I know they have a fast computer. Otherwise, I degrade the original 60p to interlaced, or to standard DVDs, or to 24p for web playback (at reduced resolution).

In any case, Panasonic recently announced progressive BD players - coming soon. Hopefully, these will be common in a few more years if we don't get too distracted with 3d.
PeterDuke wrote on 10/4/2010, 6:23 PM
We lust after a camera that can shoot 1080p but there is no easy way (yet) to view its edited output on our 1080p TVs. Direct connection of the camera and media players seem to be the two options at the moment.
jabloomf1230 wrote on 10/4/2010, 7:07 PM
"Not being able to shoot 30p with the Panasonic is an issue"

The TM700 has "Auto Slow Shutter", which will shoot as low as 1/30 in 60i & 60p modes. It does that by frame accumulation and the result might yield a passable "fake" 30p. Here's a thread from a forum that expalins this in more detail for the old Canon HV20:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?6604-Fake-30P-shooting-1-30-Shutter-Speed-in-60i&highlight=slow+shutter+speed

The TM700 does have a 24p mode.
Dreamline wrote on 10/5/2010, 10:57 AM
"We lust after a camera that can shoot 1080p" I hear that, but it is so slow to happen that most are settling for lesser cams with extraordinary prices. Do really think the v1u/ax1000/nx5u is worth 3 grand with 1.04 (basically) megapixel chips? Or the ex1 with it it's whopping 2 megapixel chips? Even the vg10 falls short of the mark leaving Canon and Panasonic to take the lead with 422 and 1080p. I've already started buying Canon because Sony is not keeping up.

C'mon Sony lets get it together.