riredale thanks for the heads up!

This is actually for I site I am planning to go live with in a few months and am trying to nail down the cleanest quality workflow situation before I go and prep HDV files.

I think the H.264 codec is the best and hope it will get wider acceptance. But it sure seems that Flash is the most widely accepted.

I am beginning to think that the only way to directly encode to Flash for HDV is using Premeire? Please tell me ain't so.

I am considering Sorenson or On2 but am really hung up on the fact I will have to transcode twice in Vegas in order to go to Flash.

At that point I will have to strongly consider Premiere. : (

I don't know what encoder Premiere uses, but I'm pretty sure you'll have to pay $150 extra for a full version of On2 Encoder plug-in, otherwise Premiere will output lower quality, just like default Flash8.

So, even though we could use a plug-in for Vegas, I don't think it's a big deal. Render out whatever you need as uncompressed .avi, then go have dinner and let your PC batch render/convert your files using a standalone Sorenson or On2. Just like most of us, you probably spend too much time staring at a monitor, rendering is a good excuse for a break. Not worth switching apps over something like this.

Premiere Pro 2 uses the On2 codec for its Flash outputs. This I know for sure.

I have used Swish Studio to get HD Flash but there should be a way to render from Vegas.

I know it uses On2, but I'm pretty sure it's a lite version, just like flash 8, itself.

to get higher quality, 2 pass encoding you have to buy a pro version standalone, or a plug-in for your NLE ( around $150 ). This is true for both, sorenson, and On2.

There was a huge quality improvement in the move from Flash7 to Flash8, due to the adoption of the On2 codec. I don't know how much better it gets with a 2-pass version of the codec.

Also, if one renders to "uncompressed" avi as an intermediate step, be prepared for enormous files. I would suggest using DVavi as the intermediate, which is about 1/5th the file size.

I guess what I am trying to get is that I have to go through an extra step with Vegas that I wouldn't have to with Premiere. Is that correct?

I don't mind having to buy a plug in. My main concern is time and quality. If with Premiere I can encode my edited files directly to Flash via On2 or Sorenson.

With Vegas I will lose time and theoretically quality. So therte is no way to encode Vegas HDV file directly to Flash w/ the On2 or Sorensen plug in?

What about HD split? I am not real sure how it works but doesn't it spit out a HD wmv file from the get go? Can Vegas edit that type of file extension without having to convert it back to the Vegas type file extension?

Aghhhhhhh!

Is ON2 or Sorenson able to accept frameserver avi's? That would eliminate the uncompressed avi files on the hard drive.

I've been using frameserver from Vegas to Virtual Dub/AVISynth on a project to clean up some old, damaged 8mm film footage that a friend had converted to VHS a long time ago, thanks to the intricate work that John Meyer provided info for. Actually working pretty well, and interesting how the concept works.

The Flash 8 encoder definitely accepts frameserver AVIs and can encode them to the On2 codec. I just tried it with NTSC DV footage on the timeline.

This brings up some other things to contend with, though. Frameserver outputs what you've got. So, in my case, it output a 720x480 frame and that's what flash encoded. That's a non-square pixel aspect.Maybe the Flash encoder can be adjusted to change this, but I didn't look for that.

The other thing is that the macromedia method still gives you more steps. I think the On2 encoder, or one of their tools, can take you all the way through to a finished product in a player and ready to go. Just encoding the FLV file is only half the job.

On2 says their encoder works with some NLEs but last I looked they didn't mention Vegas. It'd be worth sending them email asking about this.

Rob Mack

Thanks Rob!

I just emailed On2 and will report my findings. I think we all already know what the answer is. Although miracles do happen!

I am "totally lost" with the sentences

"The Flash 8 encoder definitely accepts frameserver AVIs and can encode them to the On2 codec"

"This brings up some other things to contend with, though. Frameserver outputs what you've got. So, in my case, it output a 720x480 frame and that's what flash encoded. That's a non-square pixel aspect"

Did you hear the whooshing sound of it going over my head?

So are you saying I can encode directly to FLash w/ On2 from the timeline?

Sorry for the cluelessness.

Satish's Frameserver application when it is installed simply shows up as a render format, just like MPEG2, AVI, WMV. There is a new option called AVI Frameserver. You name the file you are saving it to, and Vegas starts rendering, but nothing apparently is happening.

Another application that can handle frameserver avi's can read and start to process that avi. Vegas feeds that application each frame as the other application requests it.

Pretty convoluted, but works very well with advanced AVISynth plugins, and once you see how all the pieces fit together, not as complex as it seems. I just brought it up so you could avoid the HD space needs of uncompressed avis. You can search for frameserver on this forum for information and links to tutorials, if you feel up to it.

Re. 720x480, I would think you can set your project properties to just about any size you want in Vegas for the render, but I may be wrong.

Yes, I was assuming one could deal with the non-square-square issue but didn't want to think to hard about it while at work. Too many other things to do, unfortunately.

Just for the practice of explaining things (which is what I do for a living anyway)...

TL, Dave gave you most of the info on the frame server. Think of it like a codec you can install. What it does is create a little "signpost" avi file for your render, and then it waits for another application to ask for frames. The advantage here, I think, is that you get uncompressed output without using the disk space, and you can essentially save a render pass to boot.

So once you've got Vegas set up to render to the frameserver file, Vegas just sits and waits. Now you go to the second application, like Flash encoder, and set it up to render an FLV from your signpost AVI file. The flash encoder opens the AVI, starts asking for frames, and vegas renders them for it, as needed.

The problem is (with Macromedia flash anyway) is that after you've got that FLV file you need to open flash and import the movie. Flash will then take you through a wizard to create and skin the player. So you've still got steps after you've encoded from Vegas to the FLV file.

Now, I think the On2 encoder can handle the whole process from encoding the FLV all the way out to creating a player and adding a skin to it. So even if you had to frameserve out to it, it still speeds up the process a bit.

But there's another workflow caveate to consider. I know the flash encoder can do job queues, and I think the on2 encoder can do it as well. So you have the option of rendering 20 AVIs out of vegas and then doing 20 conversions to FLV overnight. If you have a stack of videos to encode, this might be a better way to go, since you get more sleep ;-)

For that matter, Veggie toolkit can do batch renders in Vegas. PPro can't do batch renders at all. So stick with Vegas and buy the right tools for the job.

Rob Mack

fldave, rmack350 thank you sooo much!

"So you have the option of rendering 20 AVIs out of vegas and then doing 20 conversions to FLV overnight. If you have a stack of videos to encode, this might be a better way to go, since you get more sleep ;-)"

Is the term for this "batch rendering"?

This workflow suggestion and overall work around is what I was exactly looking for. Thank you again this really solves a big challenge for me.

BTW. Much to my surprise On2 did get back to me, right away in fact! Here is the response I got.

"Yes we have a lot off interest in an Exporter plug-in for Sony Vegas. We have actually contacted the Vegas team for specs or details how to get started on this development - and unfortunately never heard back from them. I can re-email them because we would like to build this product. It would help if you also contact the Vegas team because they have to be pushed into thinking that their customer base wants this development as well."