I'm at least as irritated by the crashes with HDV material as anyone.. I certainly don't know whay, but I can guess at it...

HDV (.m2t files) is as I understand it a "MPEG2 transport stream". This format was intended for video distribution and display, it was never intended as an editing format. So every time you cut the video (unless it is exactly at an I-frame, and there is only a 1-in-15 chance of that) the editor has to quick reconstruct a NEW I-frame based on the various Predicted and Bidirectional frames making up that 15-frame Group Of Pictures. The more you edit, the more hacked-up your GOPs become and I'm guessing Vegas somehow looses track of them, eventually.

Obviously it's a bug, and I wish they'd fix it, but it's a difficult format to edit no doubt.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to edit the m2t files. I am merely putting them on the timeline with markers and rendering to cineform intermediaries. Even after the first crash (and many more to follow) It started saying that the media could not be found and it would give me the option to replace it, ignore it or ignore all even though I could go to the drive the clips were on and play them in windows media while that specific dialog box was up. Doesn't make sense, but who knows.

j razz

Interesting. I've had Vegas crashing problems on .m2t files but I assumed it was due to having cut them up. I wonder if Vegas has a hard-coded timeout somewhere when trying to load a video file, which never times out reading "simple" formats like DV, but sometimes isn't long enough to completely process HDV so it assumes the file must be inaccessible.

Well, I told Sony Support about my issues, so we'll see what they have to say.
------------------------------
Customer (John Beale) - 05/04/2006 12:20 PM
I am experiencing frequent crashes when trying to view, edit, or render 1080i HDV (.m2t files) from my Sony FX1 camera in the Vegas timeline. The .m2t files were recorded with the "HDVSplit" utility. With exactly the same project, media and timeline, sometimes Vegas can read and render OK. Sometimes Vegas simply disappears suddenly leaving no trace. Other times, a dialog box appears with specific debug information. Three such examples are included below. I am not the only one with this problem as you can see by reading the Vegas forums (links below). What can I do to solve this problem?

Sony Vegas 6.0
Version 6.0d (Build 210)
Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) READ:0xFFA79A8D IP:0x571E1F
In Module 'vegas60.exe' at Address 0x400000 + 0x171E1F
Thread: VideoCache ID=0x30C Stack=0xB70F000-0xB710000

Sony Vegas 6.0
Version 6.0d (Build 210)
Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) WRITE:0x3C IP:0x4154A28E
In Module 'cfhd.dll' at Address 0x41500000 + 0x4A28E
Thread: ProgMan ID=0x91C Stack=0xAACF000-0xAAD0000

Sony Vegas 6.0
Version 6.0d (Build 210)
Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) READ:0xFF0D1430 IP:0x646A81
In Module 'vegas60.exe' at Address 0x400000 + 0x246A81
Thread: VideoRender ID=0xFBC Stack=0xFB5F000-0xFB60000
------------
see also:
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=456898&Replies=7
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=457031&Replies=4
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=440153

Message Acknowledgement - 05/04/2006 12:20 PM
Thank you for contacting Sony Media Software Support.

This message acknowledges receipt of your request for help. We will reply as soon as possible.
-----------

[ EDIT 2:02 AM, 5/5/2006 ] What fun. It just crashed again.

Sony Vegas 6.0
Version 6.0d (Build 210)
Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) WRITE:0x3C IP:0x14E2A28E
In Module 'cfhd.dll' at Address 0x14DE0000 + 0x4A28E
Thread: ProgMan ID=0xCD0 Stack=0xAACF000-0xAAD0000

jbeale, normally editing DV, vegas just add pointers that point to starting,ending edit points into the source without modifing the source. As you noted, editing any transport stream is a little more complex. One approach is to create temp files, write complete or partial files to replace "events" on the timeline( invisible to the user). Now, each additional edit split adds more temp files and disk space and memory space. How these temps are management can be a critical issue, one approach offers speed but eats diskspace, another controls diskspace well but eats cpu cycles per edit change and third approach is a blend of the two above. Of course, each unique system configuration can have a big impact on each approach. Ideally a smart AI "3" solution is the best of all. Because vegas is build around the non-des approach, they probably choice the first solution. all these solutions require a lot disk space for temp files and OS swapfiles, so make sure you have a lot of disk space and that temps on a different disk.

jrazz: my workflow would be to convert the clips (using Cineform) before putting them on the timeline. Obviously you have a good reason for trying to do it differently, but I don't understand from your description.

Serena- I do not have the cineform program- I just have the intermediaries that are included in Vegas 6. So, that is my only option and it works well and I got what I wanted, I just had to make a couple different veg files with different clips in them for it to work. I will be using nested veg's anyways, so it is not a big deal to me right now- but it is something that I don't understand.

j razz

OK

I think the previous post is the shortest I have ever seen :)

O

When CineForm splits out the separate HDV takes does it not have some control to ensure it starts with an I-frame? When I DON'T use CineForm I capture as one big file and do the splits during the editing process. No problems like you describe.

Michael

When CineForm splits out the separate HDV takes does it not have some control to ensure it starts with an I-frame? When I DON'T use CineForm I capture as one big file and do the splits during the editing process.

MH Stevens- I don't think I follow you. This is coming from HDV Split and leaves the m2t files in tact but it sees where the splits happen and makes seperate files (easier when you have over 100 something different clips that you would like to keep seperate). The Cineform that I was talking about is the template found under avi when you go to encode your file(s) on the timeline, not the Cineform that you pay for as a seperate purchase from Vegas 6.

When you capture as 1 big file and do your splits during editing and are not using Cineform, what are you editing- the m2t files or are you using proxies?

j razz

j razz says "When you capture as 1 big file and do your splits during editing and are not using Cineform, what are you editing- the m2t files or are you using proxies?"


When I don't use Cineform I capture as one continuous file in .m27 format and split the .m2t into clips in Vegas. Then I either edit in .m2t which is tricky and limited in tracts and effects unless you have a super-computer, or I convert to .avi using the Vegas procedure or the fine GearShift script that utilized the Vegas procedure.

For now with a substantial project, CineForm and a fast system is the only pro solution. Vegas 7 due in September should however make all this obsolete as HDV capture and conversion with scene split and without third-party help must be a feature surely.

Sorry, I mean jrazz not Shirley.

Michael

I detailed several Vegas 6d crashes when editing HDV .m2t files to Sony Support, as posted above in this thread. Below is their response in full. I guess they won't be fixing this issue, since they don't believe Vegas is the problem.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Marc S.) - 05/08/2006 08:54 AM
Hi John,

Thanks for writing. HDV is very processor-intense so the first thing you will want to do is close down background processes. Press Ctrl+Alt+Del at the same time and you will see a list of the programs currently running (some users will have to hit the "Task Manager" button). Move over to the Processes Tab and click the "Image Name" heading at the top left of this window to view these items in alphabetical order. Close everything showing on that list except for the items listed below. To end a process, highlight it and click the End Process button at the bottom of the window.

End every process except for:

alg.exe
ccmexec.exe
csrss.exe
explorer.exe
lsass.exe
MsPMSPSv.exe
services.exe
smss.exe
spoolsv.exe
svchost.exe (there may be more than one of these, you can leave them all running)
System Idle Process
System
taskmgr.exe
winlogon.exe
wmiprvse.exe

You may have other Users logged into the system and displayed on this list, but make sure you log them off and close down their processes as well.

Also make sure that your system is in a cool and ventilated area. If not, you might consider placing a fan against the machine to cool it down.

You might also consider taking time to update drivers on your machine. Make sure you have the latest drivers installed for the hardware in your machine, such as the sound card, video card, and motherboard chipset/BIOS. These updates would be available directly from the device manufacturers, or from the computer manufacturer if you are using a pre-built system. Even if your computer is new or you have recently updated the drivers, be sure to double check that you have the latest ones available at this time.

Go to http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com to ensure you have the latest updates to Windows itself. Note that the Driver Updates section on this site does not usually show the latest drivers available, so be sure to check directly on the manufacturer's website for those updates.

You should also get into a regular habit of defragging the hard drive. Run the Thorough Scan Disk, followed by Disk Defragment to see if you have any drive errors. These tools can be found in Start > Programs > Accessories > System Tools.

I hope this information is helpful. If you have follow up questions or need further assistance with this issue, please update this incident.

Sincerely,

Marc S.
Technical Support
Sony Media Software
1617 Sherman Ave.
Madison, WI 53704
http://www.sony.com/mediasoftware
http://www.acidplanet.com

Not very helpful. I wish they would give a tiered response depending on your stated user understanding (computer newbie/intermediate/system builder- or something along those lines).

j razz

OK jrazz - let's start again and get back to basics.

Point No. One. If you want good/semi-pro results or you have several tracks and a lot of transitions/FX then you MUST us CineForm.

If you do not have CineForm you must lower your expectations of just what Vegas6 can give you. Your way to go is to follow the Vegas6 manual for converting your camera produced m2mts to an .avi intermediaries without using Cineform. The program from VASST called GearShift will help you do this and gives several nice short cuts.

If for some reason (and there are no good ones) you really want to edit m2ts on the timeline then restrict yourself to one track and use no transitions or FX. The computer tune-up recommendations you got from Sony you can ignore for the most part as the performance improvement is modest.

To follow your original work-flow please convert your one-file capture to .avi then cut it up and you will be able to edit just like DV. You can still render out to any HDV format.

If for some intellectual satisfaction you wish to know WHY you got those error messages that is not for the beginner or intermediate computer user as you imply you wish to be addressed.

Michael

Point No. One.

Michael- I don't think you are reading what I wrote- or maybe I did not make myself clear- I am not adding transitions/FX or anything other than markers.

I am utilizing HDV Split to keep the clips seperate and I am placing them on 1 timeline as is and then rendering with the Cineform Intermediary Template. Again- no extras save the markers.

My problem is not with Cineform or adding effects- it is with simply putting the m2t footage on the timeline to render to the Cineform Intermediary Template. If I capture to 1 file (instead of many using HDV Split) I have no problems even though it is the same footage and same length.

So again Michael- I do not want to edit m2t files- I want to convert them to intermediaries. I thought I made this clear in my initial post?

If for some intellectual satisfaction you wish to know WHY you got those error messages that is not for the beginner or intermediate computer user as you imply you wish to be addressed.

My point exactly- if you can specify the level you are on- maybe Sony can modify their response to you in a way that better fits you instead of telling you to update everything on your system. (I did not get the computer tune-up recommendations- that was jbeale). This would cut down on replies and time if you could cut out the- let's assume this user doesn't know anything about computers- reply and allow you to get to the root of the problem.

j razz

MH_Stevens wrote
[...] "If for some reason (and there are no good ones) you really want to edit m2ts on the timeline..."

We may have to agree to disagree on this one. With adequate time and disk space, I agree HDV-Intermediate is preferred. But with the crazy last-minute changes that clients imposed on my last project I had neither time nor disk space to convert all source material to HDV-I format, so I ended up with a timeline including quite a few .m2t segments as well as HDV-I, still JPEGs, and parts of a few VOBs from DVDs I had produced earlier. Vegas imported all these assets and showed them on the timeline ok. All these elements worked fine in Vegas separately. I expected Vegas could handle them together- maybe slowly- but at least render the project out without crashing. I was wrong.

Looks like I either need to find different clients, a different NLE, or a different line of work.

The response from Sony shows to me that the fellow doing the responding just picked "Canned answer #76-35a" or whatever. Vegas obviously hits some sort of wall when there is a given number of m2t files on the timeline. I would assume that they are working on it, since they pay attention to the user base and lots of heavy users/promoters such as Spot.

Meanwhile, it would make sense to go the Cineform route, which offers substantial other advantages anyway. Maybe in the future one will have the option to work natively with m2t also.

jrazz: The first question of your post asks as to why you got specific error messages. Its unlikely that you will ever know that without the system dump files. Secondly you ask :

"I know that I can capture to 1 file and place that on the timeline, but why the difference when I take the same footage and cut it up before putting it on the timeline?"

You have not told me how you cut that file (an m2t file) up BEFORE you put it on the timeline. Did you capture it bit by bit by starting and stopping the camera?

In your current post you now says:

"I am utilizing HDV Split to keep the clips separate"

What is "HDV Split"? Do you mean you are splitting up a big m2t file because this is just what you said you were not doing?

You then say:
"and then rendering with the Cineform Intermediary Template"

Cineform has no template nor does not do any rendering. Are you saying you are converting the split clips to .avi using CineForm? i thought you did not have CineForm or did not want to use it. If you do have Cineform this is NOT the way you do it. With Cineform the standard method is to convert the files directly from the camera to .avi on your HD BEFORE you open Vegas.

You then seem to change tack and say:

"My problem is not with Cineform or adding effects- it is with simply putting the m2t footage on the timeline to render to the Cineform Intermediary Template"

As the above makes clear, if you use Cineform you NEVER (as I said in all my previous posts to you) put m2ts on the timeline. You don't ever take them of of your camera! The m2ts should be on you recording medium an nowhere else.

You then say:

"....... I do not want to edit m2t files- I want to convert them to intermediaries" but as you have mentioned so much about Cineform I'm thinking do you have Cineform or do you want to convert to an intermediary WITHIN VEGAS. If the later, again as I said before, you must capture your m2ts from tape to the timeline and then convert.

It's likely though you didn't make it clear that what you are doing is to capture your m2mts to the Vegas timeline, then you split the m2ts and then you try to convert each one separately. IF this is what you are doing your problem is that because m2mt is a GOP with I and P frames you have not been splitting at a place in the sequence that makes the file intelligible to the conversion utility. When the conversion utility looks at one of your HDV cut up bits it does not start it GOP with an I frame and you get errors. That's why we have been telling you you can not do this.

Convert to the original m2ts from the camera, un-mutilated to intermedairy THEN split and do what you will.

Michael

You have not told me how you cut that file (an m2t file) up BEFORE you put it on the timeline. Did you capture it bit by bit by starting and stopping the camera?
That is what HDV Split does- it is a program that is free (google it) and has been mentioned numerous times before on this forum. It sees a stop/start point on the tape and while capturing it "splits" the file into smaller files based on stop/start points.

After placing these files on the timeline, then I convert to the intermediary file (cineform) that is a template included with Vegas 6.0c/d and maybe earlier versions- when you choose avi in the drop down, the intermediary files are listed in the second drop down box.

I do not own the program Cineform- but I do use the intermediary template to conver the HDV footage to before editing. This is why the footage must go on the timeline and instead of using the Vegas internal capture mechanism, I use the HDV Split utility which works great for capturing and splitting HDV footage.

Michael- I hope that clears things up for you.

j razz