HF-10/HF-100 rendering issues in Vegas Pro 8

Joe Balsamo|LVX wrote on 7/18/2008, 8:08 AM
I started a new thread as I want to be able to concentrate on an apparent issue I'm having with rendering HF-10 AVCHD files in Vegas.

I suspect something is wrong with my settings and I'd like to get comments from people using either the HF-10 or the HF-100 (same camera, different internal memory) and rendering in Vegas. I know there are several people on here using this setup and doing so successfully, so I think the issues I'm having may have something to do with me.

The situation I find myself in is the following:

I'm comparing the Canon HF-10 and the Panasonic HDC-SD9. Directly from the camera, either attached to my HDTV or files played "natively" in WMP, both look good, the HF-10 getting the slight nod, IMHO.

Now, enter Vegas. Here's my issue. Files from the Panasonic, rendered almost anyway, look about the same as the original file played in WMP. So far, so good. Enter the HF-10. Now, the rendering of these files produces horrible artifacting. Basically, pixelation near edges. I took a nice twilight shot of the mountain behind my home. Nice, pretty purple sky type thing. Severe, big "pixel squares" start popping up where the mountain transitions to the sky. I mean, we're talking, huge, horrible pixelation.

I hope and pray I'm doing something wrong. I really, really, want to keep the Canon and return the Panny, but right now, the Panny is producing and the Canon is not.

Any thoughts as to what I might be doing wrong? I know that several of you on here are using the HF-10, so I'd appreciate any help I can get.

Thanks,

Joe

Comments

Joe Balsamo|LVX wrote on 7/18/2008, 8:39 AM
I think I may have found my problem. I was recording in 60i, setting my project for 60i, but rendering at 24p, that seemed to cause the odd pixelation.

No default 60i template for WMV, so I created my own. Looks great now. Very strange that this doesn't seem to cause problems for the Panasonic, but does for the Canon.

I'd still like to know what settings some of you are using when rendering out HF-10 clips.

Joe
johnmeyer wrote on 7/18/2008, 10:05 AM
Glad it's working. My basic rule of thumb is to never change either the framerate or the interlacing properties from the original. Obviously both can be done, and in some cases with good results if one knows what one is doing (and I am not generally one of those ones), but generally, changing framerates or deinterlacing creates bad video.

I do not understand people's fascination with deinterlacing. Hmm ... maybe I'll start a thread and ask people.
Joe Balsamo|LVX wrote on 7/19/2008, 4:39 AM
I thought I had solved this problem, but I have not. Currently testing out both the Panasonic SD9 and the Canon HF10.

I pretty much like everything about the HF10 except for one thing:

The video from the SD9 works better on my system! What I mean by this is I am getting absolutely no issues if I view either camera's output "raw". I mean, drag and drop the MTS files into WMP and they play fine...but bringing the files into Vegas and rendering into a WMV format causes the pixelation issue with the Canon files, but not with the Panasonic.

Right now, I can bring the Panny files into Vegas, render them into pretty much anything, and they look truly great. The Canon, the files render into pixelated nightmares. I know it's probably something I'm doing wrong as the raw files look fine. But, still, I'm wondering if anyone has any thoughts on this.

I'm still not sure what the issue is, but it's driving me batty...I'm going trailrunning in the mountains today to get away from this for awhile and revisit it fresh.

Thanks,

Joe
Joe Balsamo|LVX wrote on 7/20/2008, 7:50 AM
Just to put an end to this thread, all of the issues were due to improper settings in Vegas on my part.

I am now able to render out WMV format from the HF-10 and the resulting clips are absolutely gorgeous.

Now, on to my original project of testing the SD9 and the HF-10. Right now, the HF-10 gets the slight nod, but the SD9 is an awesome little camera as well. In fact, it is a little smaller and lighter than the HF-10, so it may be the way to go, though I get more control over features with the HF-10.

Bottom line, I'm shooting in all sorts of different light, panning, zooming, still on a tripod, etc., etc. I will report back which camera I finally choose and why.

Thanks for all of the help many of you have provided me. This is a great community and I appreciate y'all putting up with my "newbieness" ;)

Regards,

Joe
UlfLaursen wrote on 7/20/2008, 11:42 AM
Nice to know - Joe..

I have done a little 'native' editing of HF10 footage in V8Pro without probs. besides a little slow preview :-)

/Ulf
FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 7/21/2008, 12:02 AM
I'm glad you started this thread.

Please, if you have a document stating the correct settings to use when using HF10 footage in SV pro, please send me the link to it. I'm using the PAL format.

I thought I had this thing figured out but also noticed squares you speak about.

Q1: Do I keep the footage in HD format and down size just before burning to 720x 768 standard DVD? What is the best template to use?

Q2: The file EXT is different when using Canon's download program than when I use a card reader. Will it make a difference to the footage?


Aje wrote on 7/21/2008, 2:06 AM
I´ve got a HF100 (PAL) since a week and have done some testshooting and edit in Vegas 8b.
No trouble to get the MTS files in timeline, edit and preview BUT
after rendering to DVD stream with vegas template there is
remarkable quality change.
In preview it looks super but after rendering it looks like an old 8 tape
Will AVCHD Upshift converting to m2t file before editing be to any help or would Veg 8c perhaps solve this problem?
I hope this problem can be solved cause the HF100 takes very good
pictures and suite my shooting needs.
/Aje


UlfLaursen wrote on 7/21/2008, 2:44 AM
Hi

I have only so far made flash out of it via adobe encore, but I am in PAL land too, so I'll try to burn that AVCHD timeline to a disc and let you know. I have 15 min. testfootage that I'll try out - I expect quality to be as good as my HV20.

Will post more later.

AVCUpshift will convert to HDV that should be easier to edit, but also bigger in file size. for $49 I think it is ok - and it's a VASST-product, so you should be ok :-)

/Ulf
UlfLaursen wrote on 7/22/2008, 10:29 AM
Hi

I just did a quick default export of 10 min. AVCHD timeline from Canon HF10 in Vpro 8b to DVDA, and it seems ok. Might be a tiny interlaced a few places, but in general it looks as fine as or even better than DV.

I cannot think of where your problems come from - I don't see it at all. It renders in 15 min. (my 10 min. timeline) on a quadcore.

/Ulf
FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 7/22/2008, 11:24 PM
Ulf,

What template did you use and was it with audio?
Did you render to SD.
Joe Balsamo|LVX wrote on 7/23/2008, 5:54 AM
Ulf,

Do you think that Upshift would actual *increase* render times, then? I am pretty happy now with my editing on my Duo core, but I wish rendering was faster. I've been rendering to pretty "heavy" specs, so I probably should try something less ambitious. Are you rendering to Main Concepts mpeg? I should get render times about twice as slow as you.

Thanks,

Joe
UlfLaursen wrote on 7/23/2008, 12:32 PM
@ lightads:

I used defalt PAL Widescreen template for video and 48 KHz 16 bit for audio - separate streams.

@ LVX:

Rendering to mainconcept and PAL widescreen DV video
Not sure about that - have not compared render of AVCHD -> SD to HDV -> SD.
I would suspect that rendertimes would be near the same.
My rendertime on AVCHD -> SD on quadcore is a little over 1:1

/Ulf
Joe Balsamo|LVX wrote on 7/26/2008, 9:27 AM
Just to tie up some loose ends...

I went back to the original, shipping DLL and rendering issues have been solved with my HF10. Of course, with the old DLL, I can't read-in or edit the files from a Panasonic HDC-SD9.

I'm curious if anyone has any similar issues?

Joe
FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 8/11/2008, 1:54 AM
Joe, since you also have the Canon HF10 could you please also confirm a few things. When you check the properties of your 25p clip in Vegas does it report that it is interlaced?

Have you rendered from HD to a standard DVD, if so where you happy with the output?

And, what is your thoughts on shooting in "Cine" mode together with 25p as apposed to any "Program" mode but in 50i?

Craig

Craig
Joe Balsamo|LVX wrote on 8/12/2008, 5:42 AM
Craig,

I'm on the NTSC side of things, so I'm dealing with 24p. In any case, Vegas does report the 24p files straight from the HF10 as being interlaced. I have to do reverse telecine using cineform in order to do the pulldown before Vegas properly recognizes it as being prorgressive.

I have used the Cine mode with 24p, but I think it primarily just blows up the colors.

Joe