I just hit the "N" key to insert the markers.
DAO is important for mastered audio CDs. You need to finish the CD. That shouldn't affect the sound, but it will affect the burn, and playability.
could it be you've got an effect on the master track that is causing track overdrive? Nero wouldn't see this. What about levels?

Why not rip the resulting CD back into Vegas and have a look see what's happened?
I use CDA for burning CDs, came for free with SF7. Seems like the best tool for the job and it does have a clipped peak detector which has saved my bacon once or twice.

Bob.

On the VEGAS timeline, you have to put the TRACK markers yourself.

Yup, did that.

I just hit the "N" key to insert the markers.

Yup, that's how I inserted the markers. I double-clicked on each event, and then pressed "N".

You need to finish the CD.

Yup, did that.

could it be you've got an effect on the master track that is causing track overdrive? Nero wouldn't see this. What about levels?

No track fX, not even the Vegas "defaults" which I long since removed. I did find that the levels had been bumped up, but only by 0.1 dB. However, this perhaps caused some re-rendering, but given how clean Vegas is with audio, and given that my sources were 44.1 to start with, I can't imagine I would have gotten such horrible results.

Why not rip the resulting CD back into Vegas and have a look see what's happened?

Good suggestion.

What do the master bus meters tell you? Are you clipping at all during playback?

If you rip the track you burned back into Vegas, what does the file look like? Are there flat peaks?

Peter

I have now killed about half a day on this, and I really think that it is not my problem. I have burned this project on two completely different computers, both running Vegas 6.0d. I have "fixed" the 0.1 dB track header increase that I mentioned in my last post, and set it back to 0.0 dB. When i burn the CD in Vegas after making this change, I still have the same problems. I have done all the things suggested in the earlier postings.

I am certainly capable of making mistakes, but I am not exactly a neophyte at this. I've burned a LOT of CDs with Roxio and over th past three years, with Nero. I've never tried burning one in Vegas before this, and I don't think I am going to do it anytime soon again.

As I try to analyze what I may be doing that causes this, the one thing I have done that in any way changes or alters the audio is to use the "normalize" switch on each event. However, the peaks look fine -- they are not anywhere close to clipping. What's more, I have other types of distortion in really quiet passages. Here's a link to two MP3 files. The "good" MP3 (which is how I have labeled it) was captured while playing the WAV file. I have a "What You Hear" capability on my PC, so I can record whatever I hear. I then played the CD which was made from this WAV file. I have labeled this "bad", and when you hear it you will know why. There is all sorts of "pfft" and static and pops. Years and years ago, on my very first CD-ROM I heard something similar when the timing on the audio extraction was incorrect when ripping a CD. However, this audio starts out pristine (as you can hear on the "good" WAV recording).

Thus, the audio problem manifest themselves differently depending on the volume level. I earlier reported sound that sounded like clipped peaks, but that was on louder passages. In these really quiet passages, I get the static and "pfft" sounds.

BTW, the Normalize level on the WAV event that creates the "bad" recording is -0.1 dB. Therefore, if the Normalize function has anything to do with this, then it must have a major flaw, since -0.1 dB shouldn't even been an audible difference.

Here's a link to the good/bad files (they are zipped together):

Good/Bad.zip

What do the master bus meters tell you? Are you clipping at all during playback?

I have a few pretty hot tracks that get up to -1.0 dB. The peaks in most of the others are in the -2 to -3 dB range. I have not been able to find anything above -1.0 dB.

I hear what you're talking about, hard to see what it is in Vegas at such a low level however it I'd put good money on it not being clipping.
Sounds more like sample rate errors but the only ones I've heard are very nasty, sharp 'clicks' and these are more subtle than that.

PS, YouSendIt seems to have sprouted a lot of popups etc.

Bob.

very strange... i've burned all my audio CD's in Vegas since I found out Nero doesn't like ogg files. Never once have I heard this.

it sounds a lot like a cd copy of a copy IMHO. I've never had good luck with those... what speed are you burning at & what media? For some reason I'm thinking Vegas isn't liking your burner/media (IE a software problem).

John, are you hearing the distortion on a different playback system? If so, does it have oversampling? One potential problem is some of the older systems with oversampling can distort audio that has been output at very high levels such as -.01dB. Haven't seen this for a while, but a few years ago, we were always facing this at Rocket Lab during mastering, so we'd always keep it at least a full dB down.

Just to save a lot of questions.
This material is at very low level, peak to -30dB, really have to wind the volume WAY up to hear the problems. I can see no sign of clipping after I zoom the waveforms in a long way in Vegas. Also the errors have no correlation to loudness.

You'd almost think it's sample rate errors or a dithering problem except as I said before this sure doesn't sound like sample rate error's nasty clicks and if itwas a dithering problem I'd expect it to be more regular.

What it could just be are errors on thhe burnt media, would need to run something like Plextools to check although if other apps can burn the same media on the same drives without causing this problem you have to wonder UNLESS it's an issue with DAO / TAO or else buffer underrun protection, that can cause wierd issues I think.

Bob.

I hear what you're talking about, hard to see what it is in Vegas at such a low level however it I'd put good money on it not being clipping.

Yeah, as I said in my last post, initially I heard distortion like clipping in the loud passages, but then I found out that the soft passages also had problems, and the nature of the distortion was different. However, I'm pretty sure both the problems on the loud passages (which I did not post at yousendit) and the soft passage problem are somehow related.

Sounds more like sample rate errors but the only ones I've heard are very nasty, sharp 'clicks' and these are more subtle than that.

Yes, I agree.

it sounds a lot like a cd copy of a copy IMHO.

Definitely not. The CD that I am (trying to) create is for one of our local ballet companies. The ballet mistress brought all the original, factory fresh, CDs with her today and I ripped them to my laptop. These CDs were brand new, in the wrapper. The resulting WAV files sound perfect. There are no errors or problems with these WAV files. Also, just to re-state, I can create an absolutely perfect CD using Nero, using the same burner and same media, burned at the same speed. The problem is definitely in Vegas. It is the only variable.

what speed are you burning at & what media?

I used TDK media on the initial burn (where Vegas wouldn't even put chapter marks on the CD because apparently it only does this with disc-at-once burns, even though both Roxio and Nero put chapter marks on track-at-once CDs). I then figured I didn't want to waste a lot of media so I have been burning on several different brands of CD-RW at 4x.

For some reason I'm thinking Vegas isn't liking your burner/media (IE a software problem).

I too thought that might be the case, so I switched from my laptop to my desktop. They use completely different burners. The only common denominator is Vegas 6.0d. The resulting CDs from both computers sounded equally as bad.

John, are you hearing the distortion on a different playback system?

Yes, definitely.

If so, does it have oversampling?

None of my playback CD or DVD units have oversampling (I live a very humble life).

The client has decided to change one track, which gives me a little more time to fool with this. I just tried to burn another disc, and this time Vegas flatlined the disc (burned it with zero audio). I just re-opened the project, and the track is not muted.

My next step here, that I was trying when this last burn failed completely, was to burn with all the Normalization removed from all the events. It is the only "non-standard" thing I did. Other than that, this project just has WAV files on the timeline, separated by the appropriate amount of blank space (which is important to allow for moving scenery during the blackouts, and is why I wanted to burn from the Vegas timeline, so I could get exact timing between tracks).

Sigh ... I spend my life troubleshooting this damn thing. All the software on my computer doesn't give me even 1/10 the problems of Vegas and DVDA. It didn't used to be so back in the 4.0 days.

I have so much time invested in learning these programs that it will be tough to switch, but I'm getting very close to bailing out. This is just one of dozens of problems I have had in the past week, most of which I have not posted, but most of which I eventually confirmed to be bugs. Admittedly, I do a lot of non-standard stuff (like creating 352x240 DVDs, or creating 23.97 DVDs from film that I have telecined myself using my film to video invention, or trying to get good video from still camera "movie" captures -- MJPEG progressive at 10 or 15 fps).

For one problem I just had two days ago, I found that TMPGEnc handled everything just fine. Yesterday, I had to use VirtualDub as an intermediary because Vegas will not import Divx files (I read extensively in this forum about various solutions, but as most people in those threads found, those solutions don't work).

Vegas is a wonderful program for editing audio and editing DV video. I know some of you will tell me all the wonderful things you can do beyond that, and, after a LOT of work, I sometimes have been able to do some of those things as well. However, when I find that $0 freeware, and $20 shareware consistently do a far better job than a product aimed at pros, I get upset and annoyed. I am too old to spend this much time chasing all these problems.

buffer underrun protection, that can cause wierd issues I think.

I'll try disabling that.

John,
just be aware that buffer underrun thing might be a long shot, I just remember reading a warning about it in the CDA docs.

It really should work OK, I know plenty of the audio guys master CDs straight out of Vegas, in fact I recall being berated for being such a Luddite and still using CDA for mastering but heck, I'm old and old ways die hard. I just like all the other nice tools in CDA like printed cue sheets etc and CDA still has a lot of respect with the duplicators.

Anyway I gather you're ripping the CDs with Vegas and bringing the tracks into a 16/44.1K project? And they play back just fine, the problem only is noticeable on the burnt CD?

Try rendering out a small section as 16/44.1, bring that into a 16/44.1K project, still sound OK?

My suspicion is somehow for some reason Vegas is doing a resample and things are getting screwed up in the process.
When I master I render eveyrthing out as 16/44.1 and bring that into CDA and then have CDA create an image before burning, this shouldn't be strictly necessary in this day and age but I like to be 110% certain.

Possibly Vegas is having to do a resample (or thinks it does when it doesn't) and given that it has to feed the data fast enough to keep up with the burner the wheels fall off introducing these errors but then again you've tried it on another system, I assume with exactly the same results?

what's the project settings at? Maybe those are slightly off (maybe 44.0 instead of 44.1khz?)

i didn't mean to say you're copying a copy, what is going on in those audio files (I heard it fine at normal volume) sounds just like a copy of a copy (on the fly copy). Wierd.

Just out of curosity, give CDex a try for ripping your CD. I prefer that to the Vegas ripper just beause it supports CDDC (or whatever) & I have have track names done automaticly. :) I've burnt tons of CD's with vegas & using that program.

FYI,it isn't Vegas's fault DivX doesn't load anymore, it's their fault. The codec got "rigged" that way ~version 4 or 5. :( I've just stopped using DivX files if I get ahold of one. I don't even really see them anymore.

EDIT: you don't have an audio FX on he master track do you? Maybe a demo of something?

It almost sounds like some kind of crosstalk. Like when your soundcard picks up the sound of your MOUSE.

I don't know of anyway for Vegas to do this, and I am not saying that is the problem, I am just saying that is the type of sound I am hearing.

Dave T2

Johnmeyer, try checking for an open ground in the chassis with the disc drives and also the audio card. The noise reminds me of head moment on the drive during recording, where grounding or voltage drops during use.

Apit34356,

Your description is better than mine. That is the sound I hear.

Dave T2

Under Preferences-CD settings in Sony Vegas Movie Studio Platinum there is a checkbox for "Skip driver database;auto detect drive capabilities on startup". Here is the help decription:

"Skip drive database; autodetect drive capabilities on startup

When the check box is cleared, an internal configuration file is used to determine your drive's capabilities.
If you encounter problems burning CDs, select this check box, and the application will test your drive to determine its capabilities."

I'm a total newbie but it's worth a try.

Sorry, I missed the part of your post where it didn't work on your desktop either.

try checking for an open ground in the chassis with the disc drives and also the audio card. The noise reminds me of head moment on the drive during recording, where grounding or voltage drops during use.

That seems to suggest an analog to digital conversion is occurring, and it is picking up electromagnetic noise. Was this in the source file or the burned CD? Seems like it would be most desirable for the whole operation to be handled in the digital domain. If not possible because you are recording from an analog source, seems like the A/D conversion should happen outside of the PC (like with a FW or USB audio interface).

I was jsut thiking.... make a blank WAV file & burn that to CD, then capture. Then we'll (and you) will have pure noise to figure out.

OK, I found the problem. It is a problem with Vegas' normalization. I can repeat the problem with 100% certainty. If I enable normalization for the event and burn from the timeline, I have a problem; if I disable normalization for the event, no problem.

I burn at 4.0x on CD-RW media (although media has nothing to do with it). Buffer underrun protection is turned off; Render temporary image before burning is enabled.

I spent another ten minutes trying to reduce the problem down to a simple project, consisting of just one WAV file. So far, when reducing the project, I have been unable to repeat the problem. However, it repeats every time if I enable normalization for every event in the larger project. Perhaps switching between normalization levels (because the normalization level is different for each event) gets something in a "state." No way for me to know. However, I can tell you with certainty that event normalization is the only variable I am changing, and that the problem happens when normalization is enabled, and disappears when it is turned off.

My workaround (and boy am I good at workarounds) is to use a volume envelope to manually get the levels I want, based on the VU meters, my ears, etc. That works, and I have a CD that now sounds fine.

Thanks for posting back. This must be an issue with V6 because I have used normalization in V4 a lot without this artifact.

Dave T2