How do we deliver 1920x1080 50p or 60p?

PeterDuke wrote on 8/1/2010, 8:20 PM

My 50 inch TV appears to support 1920x1080 50p or 60p (the specs in the manual are woefully vague!). My camera shoots in 1920x1080 50i (and lower). If I direct connect the camera via HDMI to my TV and watch say a recording of light poles whizzing past as seen from a moving vehicle, the background is sharp but the poles are blurred. If the movement is fast enough, I see two poles instead of one, suggesting that I am watching interlaced frames on a progressive screen.

If I make an AVCHD disc of this scene and play it on my Blu-ray player, also connected via HDMI, I see the same thing, whether I tell the player to output 1080i or 1080p.

I wondered whether I should convert my 1080i footage to 1080p using the best double rate deinterlacer available. But how would I then view it on my TV? The Blu-ray disc spec does not cover 1080p at 50 or 60 fps, only 24. The AVCHD disc spec is a subset of the Blu-ray disc spec., so it is no help.

I notice that Panasonic have come out with a 1920x1080 50p or 60p camera (HDC-HS700). How will people watch this on their TVs (other than by direct connection of the camera)?

Are there some Blu-ray disc players that will play this? Can you burn such discs? Note that the data rate could be up to twice as great when going from say 50i to 50p.

Comments

john-beale wrote on 8/1/2010, 9:13 PM

Short answer is for now, you don't, except as data files to play on a fast PC.

I have the Panasonic TM700, one of very few consumer cameras available now to shoot 1920x1080 60p. As you have observed, 60p is not yet a widely distributable format. Any sufficiently fast PC can play it if you have the right software, such as the "HD Writer AE" that Panasonic provides, or the Mirillis Splash Lite player, http://mirillis.com/en/products/splash.html

Some people report their Sony PS3 can play 60p smoothly, although maybe that is just the newer one. My older non-slimline 40 GB PS3 does not, the video has subtle hiccups which take away the point of using 60p. For now, I am downconverting to 60i for general use playback and distribution.

In my experience, the data rate in the H.264 codec between 60i and 60p for "reasonable" image quality is nearly the same! That is because motion estimation at 60p is easy, and (at least with the TM700) there is in-camera noise reduction that takes away almost all random noise (in normal to high lighting).

You can read more about the TM700 and about playing back and editing 1080p60 video here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1248284

PeterDuke wrote on 8/1/2010, 9:47 PM

Thanks jbeale for your thoughts.

Getting back to my original post, I said that I think my TV supports 1080p at 50 fps. Perhaps it only supports 1080p at 25 or 30 fps. It is an LG 50PG79ED. That may be why changing my Blu-ray player from 50i to 50p made no difference. I may have to settle on 25p in that case and pretend that it is 50i for AVCHD or Blu-ray disc purposes.

EDIT
After re-reading the manual (and reading between the lines) it appears that my TV supports the following 1920x1080 modes:
24p
30p
50i
50p
60i
60p

So there is no 25p, unless the 24p can be stretched enough.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 8/2/2010, 5:54 AM

> If the movement is fast enough, I see two poles instead of one, suggesting that I am watching interlaced frames on a progressive screen... I wondered whether I should convert my 1080i footage to 1080p using the best double rate deinterlacer available.

You can try and fix this right in Vegas. In the project properties, change the Deinterlace Method to Interpolate Fields and then render progressive. This should fix that particular problem. The real fix is to record progressive.

~jr

Laurence wrote on 8/2/2010, 9:50 AM

50i playback of 25p footage looks the same as 25p playback of 25p footage. The only difference is in the line playback order.

PeterDuke wrote on 8/3/2010, 4:17 AM

Thanks again.

Looks like I need to wait for the next generation of Blu-ray to be able to make 1920x1080 50p media to view on my TV. In the meantime there are a few things to try to keep me off the streets. :)

FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 8/3/2010, 5:56 AM

It is my opinion that DVD or Blu Ray discs will die a slow death. Media players will be the next big thing. And how do we diliver our content you may ask? Simple, memory modules or onto hard drive. HD content killed the DVD player. Fewer people today have BD players compared with people who have PC's at home or office which can play HD content? Everyone has a PC or at least access to a PC. I still make DVD's of weddings almost as a tradition but when customers see the quality of 720p MT2 file they want it copied to their hard drive ASAP. On my media player I have my complete portfolio and hundreds of TV series and all my DVD movies have been either copied or ripped to single file MKV or MPG format. After shooting an AVCHD session I simple insert the SDHC memory card into the media player for preview. It's great.

Like I said, it's my opinion.

PeterDuke wrote on 8/3/2010, 8:11 PM

Yes, I have just been looking at media players/streamers. June edition of Australian PC User looks at some, but they still seem to need a bit of work to play high bit rates reliably. Not all support DVD or Blu-ray menus either, so you would have to select individual whole movies from a jukebox interface.

Do you have any advice on a device that would reliably play 1920x1080 at 50p into my TV?

FilmingPhotoGuy wrote on 8/3/2010, 10:14 PM

I am using the Mede8er which plays just about anything you have. I have download from HD demo's from HD demo reels and the ones i downloaded all play. Before I bought the unit I made a 1920x1080 clip and took it along to the supplier and it play'd perfectly. It plays the DVD menu's just like you've created them in DVDA as long as you copy the 2 DVD folders as is to it. I'm not sure about Bluray menu's but you can join the forum there and read some FAQ's.

PeterDuke wrote on 8/4/2010, 7:19 AM

Thanks

That one was not included in the mag article. I scanned the specs and the user manual but saw nothing explicitly about max video bit rate, although they say that it will play "most" HD cameras. Blu-ray was not mentioned either.

LSHorwitz wrote on 8/4/2010, 7:32 AM

PeterDuke,

Apparently the most recent version of the BluRay specification has been released with 50p and 60p frame rates used for 3D playback. Some BluRay 3D disks have already been announced but not yet released, and players are also forthcoming. I doubt that 50p or 60p will therefore be a supported high frame rate progressive change you will see for camcorder video such as the Panasonic TM700.

Larry