You might try to reduce the brightness of the message. TV screens are designed to hold an image for brief moment so there is no flicker. A bright scene will have a longer persistence of vision than a grey or darker screen.

This works better on film because you do not have the screen persistence issue.

Dave T2

If there were any data to support the effectiveness of subliminal data (which means below threshhold), they probably would be illegal! But since there are no such data, it makes no difference.

" always thought subliminal messages were illegal... no?"

Enforcement is difficult because of subliminal "this is not a subliminal message" messages.

G

Thanks for all the comments on the legality of the issue. As I stated, this is for a science fair project and if you need to know, a disclosure is being made. But I'd rather hear some ideas on how to do it.

Thanks for the helpful reply Dave. I've tried reducing the brightness of the video track where the generated text is placed, it helps some but you can still read it. I'll keep trying, thanks again.

Your subliminal message wouldn't happen to be "YOU CAN STILL SEE ME!" would it?? Because, I think that's probably where your problem would be. :)

This may not help either, but maybe try running it off of a computer screen rather than a TV screen. Computer screens have a higher refresh rate and might be more subliminal.

Dave T2

Seems to me you have to keep the message only 1 frame or less in
duration. Even then it might show too much. 1 frame every 2 seconds
is way too much. Then again sublimation is not my strong suit.

JJK

I've read about it in itsahoax a book by one of itsahoax the advertising gurus (I think itsahoax it was David Ogilvy). It itsahoax said that the idea itsahoax of subliminal messages were so itsahoax terrifying that they were banned itsahoax before they existed. And itsahoax no research has ever been able to prove itsahoax that they work. They are just itsahoax flicker to the ones who are itsahoax half asleep and a right itsahoax pain in the nect to the rest of us.

Tor

TorS, I have no data to back me up on this, however I feel this urge to tell you that what you read was a hoax. Can't explain it, but it just was!

M

Dave, I have tried it on the computer screen, in fact, that is where I started at. It is just as visible.

JJ, that's a good idea. You may be right about that being too much to hide.

After reading MyST's post i have an incredible urge to eat some Canadian bacon. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

What if you tried one letter at a time instead of a word or phrase? It might be easier to hide.
EX: where "/" stands for a frame.

Y//O//U/////C//A//N//'//T/////S//E//E/////M//E//

Just an idea... I know diddly squat about subliminal messages.

M

Kelly, you can't prove nuthin'!! :) I better follow this thread more closely to get some tips. You were supposed to want Canadian BEER!

M

Try this: Take your message, bring it's transparency down to say, 25-30%, and have it come up occasionally for 1 frame, overlaid over your video. You don't want it plainly seen if you froze on that frame (i.e.: have a big "DIE" on the screen). Also, don't just use words, put in an occasional object that would describe or associate with your word. A knife for the "DIE" example would work. Don't put it in the center of the screen eigther. Put in on the edges. That way, the viewer won't focus on it, but will see it out of the corner of their eye.

Of course, the easiest way is to have video that relates to what you're trying to tell your victims (if you want people to watch CBS, you'd show a family enjoying CBS programming. That would make people think 'Hey, lets watch that show on CBS.'). This is what product placement in movies and tv does basically. Since you're doing stuff for your science fair, it might not be a bad idea to have a message that says "1st Place" somewhere on your video. Then, ironically, if it did work, you'd get 1st place, then you'd tell them what you did, they'd take your ribbon away, but you would of proven your point: you controlled the judges with subliminal messages. Don't tell people what message you put up though, then it won't work as good.

One last thing: did you get this idea from the movie "Fight Club" with the 1 frame of porn in kids movies?
Tell us how it turns out when you're done.

"...what use is a subliminal message if it blends into the underlying video?

Actually, this is exactly what you want it to do. That's what makes it subliminal.

I think the only law passed related to the use of subliminals in movie theatres, where they had developed a technique using separate projectors with high speed shutters to superimpose words at a rate beyond the "threshold of awareness." I'm not sure what that speed is, but it's obviously faster than 1/30 of a second, so I don't think you can duplicate that on a television screen or videotape.

I read a book once that said that a lot of magazine ads have subliminals in them. Most common is simply the word "sex" repeated over and over in kind of a matrix that is integrated into photographs and art work.

That's the method you might try. Maybe instead of one 72pt word, use a smaller font and repeat the word over and over again, line after line, until you fill up the screen, then super it on your video (the entire video, not just a fraction of a second) and reduce the opacity until it just barely disappears. Not barely visible, but just barely invisible. And don't try for a complex message like "Drink Belch Beer." Just go for a basic emotional reaction, like "thirsty."

But as I'm writing this, I have to wonder if it's even safe to give this information out.

Did you ever see John Carpenter's They Live?

The subliminal message should be a similar color to the background, barely visible. You could use a mask of the lettering, with shifted background information in it. I did a similar project in high school with film, scratching images into the film frames. I then later did a similar thing with video in college, using placards for the hidden titles.
Apparently the porn industry is using subliminals very heavily. I did an audio book with R Grandia, where I used similar techniques with audio as well, masking words in washes of reverb. If you loop the audio, they can be heard. Otherwise, they don't exist.
Part of subliminals is being seen, not unseen. However, it's the brevity that distracts the mind. There is a LOT of info on this around the web, do some searches. I have a pretty good article written by Dr. Janis Thayne on the subject. She demonstrates in there how many ads on the web contain subliminals, intentional or not.

Hi Robert,

Excellent idea for a science fair project. The "Subliminal Message" idea has been around for a long time. Every so often somebody convinces an advertising director somewhere that this type of "Subliminal Messaging" works. However, there are problems with this concept:

(1) When a message is "Flashed" before an audience, say in a single frame, the viewer is usually aware that something has been "flashed". If you watch an old film, you'll see that dirt and scratches are quite apparent. Your own experiments have shown this (You've actually had a little successful research, here, which sould be reported in your project documentation.)

(2) I remember some research being done years ago -- The research determined, that in order to have an impact, the viewer does need to "see" the message.

(3) That being said, It's important to realize that almost all successful advertising IS subliminal - that is, the audience is not really aware of how the message is being communicated. For example, say you're viewing a car commercial - you see that the driver's a pretty cool guy, with an attractive woman in the passenger seat - the subliminal message - Buy this car, and you'll be cool and get the attractive girl. (I know by experience that getting the cool car doesn't work. I bought the car, but I'm still a dork! -- I ended up with the hot babe somehow, but that was after I no longer had the cool car.)

(4) Almost all great art is subliminal. The form, the use of light and dark, etc. is there to impact you unconsciously. Advertisers know this -- that's why ad agencies employ "Art Directors".

What I'm suggesting is that you expand your experiments to include "artistic" subliminal advertising of the kind we see in commercials every day. Either that, or a good experiment would be to use semi-transparent text of the kind you can easily create using Vegas - and test different levels to determine the point where the typical viewer can see the message.

Good luck on your project.

Travis
Travis Voice Services ( www.Announcing.biz - www.Narrate.biz )

very informative and interesting explanation there, ttravis. There are a lot more subliminal messages being flashed before us everyday than we can possibly imagine.

To keep a subliminal message in, right on a solid color background, say, of black color, maybe you can try this out - choose a text color that is almost identical to the background, say, R=2, G=2, B=2, keep the text on for a second or two, give it a fade in and fade out (of a duration you prefer) on both end of the event. Due to the lack of color range, the fading effect might appear... "stuttering"... and eventually the text might appear like them are being flashed out. Repeat the steps at other points where you want the message to appear again. You might need to experience with the duration and color to really get the right.. feeling, but it is important to keep the message really barely visible... but still visible... without having the audience to be able to put a pause right on the frame on which the message is head on readable.

Hope my 2 cent worth is helpful, not exactly a pro here, but really just trying to help.

Awesome reply, thanks!

Thanks for the many great replies! I'll do some more work on it and let you know how it comes out.

Anybody here familiar with "Kuleshov Effect"....

A brief:


"One of the most significant theoretical discoveries in the history of film is the effect discovered by Lev Kuleshov in the early 1920s in the Soviet Union. Kuleshov proved that two shots projected in succession are not interpreted separately by the viewer; in the audience's mind, they are integrated into a whole according to the well-known equation A + B = C (in which A and B are the two joined shots and C is a new value, not originally included in any of these shots).

This effect is extremely powerful. A scene, for example, consisting of the shot of aircraft dropping bombs followed by the shot of a burning village will be routinely interpreted as "these aircraft have bombed this village." Needless to say that these two shots could have been filmed at different places, at different times, and the burning village may have been the result of an accident. French historian Marc Ferro's comment on Kuleshov's discovery goes further: "Ainsi une image est toujours commentée, doublée, suivie ou précédée d'une autre image. Et là commence, avec ou sans montage, la manipulation."(14)

(14. Marc Ferro, L'information en uniforme: Propagande, désinformation, censure, et manipulation (Paris: Editions Ramsay, 1991), p. 88. )"

"The Kuleshov effect has been adequately described, analysed and explained. Yet its implications have been generally seen in a restricted context. Actually, the Kuleshov principle is analogous to the above-mentioned mechanisms which produce the illusion of film motion. On both occasions, the viewer perceives individual and separate elements and organises them into a larger context by adding the causal relationship between them. This relationship exists only in the viewer's mind. A series of still images, when projected, results in the illusion of motion itself. A series of larger units (shots), when shown in sequence, will result in an illusionary narrative meaning."

"The effect discovered by Kuleshov and its practical use by filmmakers in the editing process pertain mainly to the contextual relationships within the structure of the film (or other audio-visual) work as a whole. Also, most theoretical discussion of the Kuleshov effect and its implications have been conducted from this point of view."

http://www.kinema.uwaterloo.ca/ju-952.htm


The original test was done with shots of a man's blank expression intercut with frames of different images: food, skull, baby, etc. Viewers interpreted the man's demeanor based on the intercut frames.


Subliminals work because your brain does.



HTH, MPH

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