Either A or B, makes no difference.

Thanks, Kimberly, I'll study the Trimmer, which, like you, I so far have no experience with.

Thanks, musicvid, that's reassuring. But does the difference between A/B on the one hand, and C/D on the other, also make no difference?

Also, could you enlighten me somewhat on why A vs. B makes no difference? For example, what does cropping do, pixelwise?

I would never use C or D. Lossy compression before editing is counterintuitive.

Thanks, musicvid. Taking your word for this, as I do, I can now proceed knowing which method to use. But I'd still like to understand better how all this works.

In testing, I'm getting the feeling that I'm not limited to Multimedia 320x240 if I want a MOV file viewable over the internet. The "Internet 480-30p 4:3 (640x480, 29.970 fps)" choice seems to produce a MOV file of somewhat higher resolution and it's not any bigger in filesize on the disc.

I have no idea how I came by the impression that I had to go with Multimedia 320x240. Why in general would one want to choose one or the other?

Since your question is about getting the best resolution possible, it seems odd that you would consider a tiny 320x240 format. You don't mention what your source material is, but if it's 4:3 from 2003 it's probably safe to assume that it's 720x480 or 640x480. If that's the case then you don't have much to work with. Cropping does exactly what it's name suggests: it crops. If you have original material that's 720x480 and you crop out a 1/3 size piece you'll end up with a 240x160 cropped image. When you enlarge this to the full 720x480 frame you end up magnifying the pixels. No new resolution is created. You'll have a blurry enlarged image.

As to your original A/B/C/D choices, i wouldn't do *any* of them. They all involve extra work and potentially lossy recompressions. None of those steps are necessary at all. Everything you want to accomplish can be done right in one project without creating any new clip files at all. Slice the original material up into the pieces you want to use. Add cropping to those pieces that need it. Add the subtitles to a track above the video. When you're all done render it to a finished output file.

"seems to produce a MOV file of somewhat higher resolution and it's not any bigger in filesize"

You've hit something that trips up a LOT of folks. The filesize is dependent on two things, and two things only: the length of the material and the bitrate used. It doesn't matter if the frame size is 320x240 or 640x480 or 32x24 or 64,000x48,000. However, what does matter is that lower bitrates don't contain enough information to render clear frames in larger sizes. Something in the 500Kbps to 2Mbps might produce a useful 320x240 output but 640x480 would look lousy. 3Mbps to 6Mbps would create a very nice 640x480 video but be a waste of space for a 320x240 video.

Why choose 320x240 over 640x480? Well, for exactly the reason i mentioned above. A smaller frame size lets you use a lower bitrate and produce a smaller file at a similar quality level that you get from a larger frame size with a higher bit rate. But, also remember that you'll potentially get only half the resolution from 320x240 that you get with 640x480. That being said, if you're cropping low resolution material to begin with, enlarging the cropped piece merely gives you a bigger blur, not more resolution.

@Peyton Todd,
MOV 320x240 is suboptimal for internet delivery, to say the very least. That's the kind of thing you might attach to an email ;?)

Try the "Good"method in my tutorial, it will work fine for you.

Many thanks, Chienworks, especially for the information that cropping just slices out a portion of the existing pixel array as is, leaving you with exactly the same number of pixels as had covered that area before.

However, I think there's no substitute for including a lossy conversion in my particular case. Since these are video clips of sentences in deaf sign language (ASL) intended to be studied by my readers in detail, there are two reasons for this: (1) I need to give users the ability to view the clips one frame at a time, and Quicktime can accomplish this while MS Media Player cannot. (2) I need to provide sub-titles identifying each sign as it is produced, and the interface in MS Media Player frequently places controls right on top of the sub-titles such that the user can barely read them. The same problem exists when I convert them to flash as Acrobat Acrobat prefers to do (I have to pick their 'Legacy' method instead).

Giiven all that, I'm now of the opinion the choice between all my methods A, B, C, and D makes no difference. Is that correct?

To refresh your memory, they all boil down to (a) whether the cropping happens in the main .veg file or the saved snippet; (b) whether the first render is to a MOV file vs.to an AVI file with cropping after that.

Peyton

P.S. It might appear that another option would be to convert to MPG, and require the user to set Quicktime as the default for viewing MPG files. However, on my computer (64-bit Win 7), when I open an MPG in Quicktime, the result is not pretty - something to do with timing, where the cursor moves a ways into the file before showing anything, then shows the first part of it at a much faster speed than it really occurred, in order to catch up to where it should have been.

Of course there will be a lossy render -- just one, and it will be the very last thing in your workflow, after the last editing pass. That's the only way that makes sense.

AVC/h264 is the de facto standard for internet or local delivery, and it plays just fine in Quicktime with a MOV or MP4 wrapper (since they invented it). Also Windows Media, Flash, home media players, or any Ffmpeg-based software player.

With all due respect for your thought process, you are making it very complicated, introducing quality losses where they need not be, and limiting playability to one player platform.

I'm fairly sure this is what Kelly was saying.

For rendering, start with one of the internet presets in Vegas or follow the first part of my tutorial (using a lower resolution and bitrate). It will work just fine on Quicktime, even if that's the only way you ever intend to deliver your content. Oh, and there are many players that will step frame-by-frame.

"But, also remember that you'll potentially get only half the resolution from 320x240 that you get with 640x480. "

Actually, that is 1/4 the resolution. Half the dimensions = 1/4 the pixels.
76800 / 307200 = .25

Thanks, musicvid. That leads to three more questions:

(1) Assuming based on the discussion so far that separate VEGs for each snippet (as I prefer) will work as well (results-wise) as doing it all from the main VEG, are you saying that the choice among my methods does matter after all? For example, that the best way (or among a few other variants equally 'best') would be: (a) Render a given excerpt of interest to an AVI snippet (not lossy since originals are AVI), then (b) Perform the editing (cropping and sub-titles) on the resulting snippet in a new VEG file, then (c) render from there to MOV or MP4?

(2) How do I find the proper AVC/h264 choice in the Render Dialog? I find no mention of h264, and the only place I find the letters 'AVC' is in the choice 'MainConcept AVC/AAC (*.mp4)'. But which of the various options under that should I choose? I definitely want 640x480. The ones with the number 480 in their name are 'Apple iPod 640x480' and 'Internet 480p 4:3'.

(3) If I pick one of the options just mentioned in (2) and wind up with an MP4, I'm guessing that both Quicktime and MS Media Player can play an MP4, but only Quicktime can provide what I need (frame-by-frame and no controls obscuring the sub-titles) while MS Media Player cannot. Would my users have to deal with the nuisance of setting the default for MP4 files to Quicktime before they read my PDFs, and resetting it later if they prefer another default player? And if I have to put a MOV wrapper around the MP4 to get what I need, how would I do that?

Peyton

P.S. This may or may not wind up over the internet vs. on a CD, but I'd like the capability for it to be over the internet if possible.

P.P.S. The originals are all 640x 480, digitized into AVI from a VHS videotape in 2003. Their degree of clarity or sharpness of resolution is not exactly awesome to put it mildly, but I want the best result I can get under the circumstances.

1) Since you are compelled to make a separate Vegas project for each snippet, the workflow you just proposed would make some sense. Smart render your snippets to identical DV-AVI settings to prevent losses. "No recompression required" should show in the Preview as you render them.

2) There are two AVC/h264 renderers in Vegas -- Sony AVC and Mainconcept AVC. Each has templates that may or may not serve as good starting points for your final renders. The Apple presets in Mainconcept AVC would present good starting points based on your choice to crop or not crop (see below). Be absolutely certain to set Interpolate as your Deinterlace method in Project Properties.

3) An MP4 file encoded with AVC/h264 will play in almost anything, including Quicktime and newer Windows Media. Since it is impossible to determine the existing file associations on any given client machine, the choice of a default player for these files will remain between you and your clients. As already mentioned, the choice of players is not limited to just Quicktime or WMP.

According to your PPS, your clips are DV-AVI captures from video tape. Your choice to crop-and-fill or crop-and-reduce the display aspect will need to be tested and decided by you. Is cropping really necessary though? 'Cause doing either opens a whole new can of worms for you, and lots of trial and error testing.

Something you "may" want to explore down the road is encoding .m4v files in Handbrake, which are MP4 with chapters. Although the chapters are recognized in Quicktime, VLC Player, and many others, there are couple of hoops to jump through to get the chapter markers from Vegas to Handbrake.

Suggest you complete your current projects (Source->Trim->Edit->Render) in Vegas, learn from it, then tackle a steeper learning curve next time. Best of luck.

Many thanks for your detailed reply, musicdvd! If you'll continue to forgive my ignorance, I have lots more questions...

RE: >>> 1. Smart render your snippets to identical DV-AVI settings to prevent losses. "No recompression required" should show in the Preview as you render them.

I have always wanted to know how to simply get the Project Properties from the media in case I forget whether I changed them or fear I might have changed them to something stupid. The trouble is, when I click the button in Proj Prop that says "Match media settings", it doesn't automatically match them for you, but takes you to a dialog that simply shows the media in the folder where your currently edited video resides. And those DO NOT in fact match my current properties entirely since the sound values are different: 44,100 Hz in Properties but 48,000 Hz in the current file. And if you double-click the filename in the Match Media Settings dialog, or click Open, it doesn't propagate the 48,000 Hz to Properties. Not surprisingly, then, I DO NOT see "No recompression required" in the Preview as I render from it.

Apparently I erred in telling you the pixel dimensions of my AVI file were 640x480. I just assumed that since I thought I knew the ratio to be 4x3 and it seemed double (actually four times) the size of 320x240. Actually, both in the file itself and in the Proj Properties they're 720x480 (does that tell you anything?). Leaving out the redundant ones, the Proj Properties are: NTSC DV (720X480, 29.970 fps), Lower field first, Pixel aspect ratio 0.9091 (NTSC DV), Pixel format=8-bit, Motion blur=Gaussian, Deinterlace method=Blend fields (the one you want me to change).

Question: Are only SOME of the above properties actually properties of the source media itself? After all, most of them don't appear in the Match Media Settings dialog when you select a file. You can see some additional ones in the Detail tab of the Properties window that's accessible from the Match Media Settings dialog, but they're not the same ones as those extra ones in the list above. How do I know whether I have matched those? Or are they simply not ones I have to match in order to earn the message "No recompression required"?

There IS one property of particular interest in the Match Media Settings window that you see when you select a file on the list. For video, the one for my AVI file says "720X480x24, 29.970 fps". Note the "24", which isn't listed in the Proj Properties. The only mention of the number "24" I can see in the Proj Properties lies in the names of some Templates in the drop-down list, such as "NTSC DV 24p (720x480, 23.976 fps)", so apparently that 24 is just a rounding off of the fps. I think the 'p' stands for 'progressive' but what that means I don't know. On the other hand, mp4 files show up in the Match Media Settings window as "12", e.g. "640x480x12, 29.970", where 12 is not a rounding off of 29.970. So what's with this "24" (and "12")?

RE: >>> 2) There are two AVC/h264 renderers in Vegas -- Sony AVC and Mainconcept AVC. Each has templates that may or may not serve as good starting points for your final renders. The Apple presets in Mainconcept AVC would present good starting points based on your choice to crop or not crop (see below). Be absolutely certain to set Interpolate as your Deinterlace method in Project Properties.

Yes, I will. Thanks. Should I conclude from that (since it's a variable you want me to set) that this is not a property of the source file itself? Isn't there a simple switch to just tell Vegas: "just copy this snippet with the properties it already has in the source file"? i.e. just take the currently selected segment of the media (i.e. "loop region"?) and slap it out there with no changes, bam!

RE: >>> 3) An MP4 file encoded with AVC/h264 will play in almost anything, including Quicktime and newer Windows Media. Since it is impossible to determine the existing file associations on any given client machine, the choice of a default player for these files will remain between you and your clients. As already mentioned, the choice of players is not limited to just Quicktime or WMP.

The key is whether whatever I choose will permit frame-by-frame viewing and won't obscure the subtitles.

And guess what! Even when I set my default player for MP4 as WMP, ACROBAT PROVIDES CONTROLS FOR FRAME-BY-FRAME VIEWING AND DOESN'T OBSCURE SUB-TITLES! Not only that, but it works the same way on my Mac as well as my PC. Furthermore, the resulting files are only half as big as the MOV files I was making, for what looks like it may be better resolution (not totally sure about the latter since a sow's ear [my originals] doth not a silk purse make). I'm very appreciative!

RE: >>> According to your PPS, your clips are DV-AVI captures from video tape. Your choice to crop-and-fill or crop-and-reduce the display aspect will need to be tested and decided by you. Is cropping really necessary though?

First, I have to admit I don't know what the difference is between crop-and-fill vs. crop-and-reduce. Does it have to do with simply chopping out a piece of the picture vs. zooming in at the same time? I only know how to do the latter.

As to whether cropping is 100% necessary, it's at least highly desireable for four reasons:

1.It focuses the reader on the particular signer of interest as opposed to the person next to him or her (without that I'd have to tell the reader each time who to look at, again and again for many many video clips; plus which, the extra events on the screen would be distracting even then)

2. When zoomed in on the features of interest (even just the face, on occasion), it serves as an implicit message to the reader saying 'Sorry, we can't make the picture any sharper than this'.

3. I may be wrong about this but it seems to me there's the reader's own eyesight resolution ability to consider - as in the world around us, where the information is the same there whether or not you look at it through a magnifying glass, but a magnifying glass still helps those of us whose eyesight isn't perfect, right?

4. Aesthetically, at least a little bit of zoom makes the clips look much better since the digitized version has about a 1/8 inch black border around it.

"However, I think there's no substitute for including a lossy conversion in my particular case. Since these are video clips of sentences in deaf sign language (ASL) intended to be studied by my readers in detail, there are two reasons for this: (1) I need to give users the ability to view the clips one frame at a time, and Quicktime can accomplish this while MS Media Player cannot. (2) I need to provide sub-titles identifying each sign as it is produced, and the interface in MS Media Player frequently places controls right on top of the sub-titles such that the user can barely read them. The same problem exists when I convert them to flash as Acrobat Acrobat prefers to do (I have to pick their 'Legacy' method instead).

1) I still see no need to create separate clips/projects. Do all the editing in a single project with the original source clips, then render the output to whatever file type(s) you want when you're done, including MOV if you wish. So i still say A, B, C, and D will all give you inferior results while requiring more time and effort.

2) Are you creating something like closed-caption subtitles, or just putting a text overlay in the video frame? I would think a text overlay would be a better choice as you can put the subtitles wherever you want and it will work in any player without changing how the player displays it's controls.

I could answer all your questions in depth, but they are multiplying like shmoos ("tribbles" if you are under fifty). Some of the information you are asking for is nonessential to making a video in Vegas and might better become part of an extended learning curve. I think its time for you to play, learn, and make lots of mistakes. It's really the best way. Post back if you get stuck.
;?)

Yes, I'm definitely old enough to know what schmoos are! To me, my questions seem just as lovable, so I'll try to post them separately one at a time so as not to inundate people, as I guessed in my most recent post that was already doing.

Could you help with one other thing, though, based on BRAND NEW INFORMATION?

It has just dawned me that for a couple of years now I have had sitting on the shelf a DVD (published in 2009) of the same conversation that I digitized from VHS back in 2003. Even though it's a DVD made for a video player, I was able to load the main file, one with a .VOB extension, into Vegas and render it, which I did, both to an AVI and to a MP4 version.

So assuming I can figure out later how to line these up with the old version on which I have made hundreds of edits, and assuming that I should obviously go with the MP4 since that's the ultimate output goal now, I just have this question:

>> How can I GUARANTEE that the Project Properties will match those of the source media?

This comes back to the point you made earlier about how important it is to do this in order to avoid a lossy output. As I pointed out, the Match Media Settings button in Vegas 11 merely sends you to a list of your media files, which are not fully specified as to the full set of properties that the Proj Properties window displays.

Thanks,
Peyton

">> How can I GUARANTEE that the Project Properties will match those of the source media? "

In Match Media Settings, you click on one of the files that is in your Project. It then matches the essential properties in that file exactly.

Although this does not directly affect your render, it points you in a particular direction for setting your render properties intelligently. It also optimizes your preview appearance and performance.

If I had a DVD and a DV-AVI capture from the same tape source, I would use the AVI in my project. The reason is chroma subsampling, but that's a level 200 subject.

If your source is DV-AVI, and you choose the corresponding DV-AVI template to render, there will be no recompression.

>> "If your source is DV-AVI, and you choose the corresponding DV-AVI template to render, there will be no recompression."

My source in Vegas can be DV-AVI if I choose the the AVI that I rendered from the ORIGINAL source, which was a file named VTS_01_1.VOB copied from the original DVD.

When that VTS_01_1.VOB file is loaded to Vegas, the Vegas 'Project Media' window says its properties are "720x480x32, 29.970 fps, Alpha=None, Upper field first, MPEG2", although its automatically defaulted Proj Properties according to the Preview Window are "1920x1080x32, 29.970i". When I rendered it to AVI I simply chose NTSC DV, and got a result that the Project Media window says is "720x480x24, 29.970 fps, Alpha=None, Lower field first, DV". That matches the properties of the original except for the last two: Upper vs Lower field first and MPEG2 vs DV.

So, assuming that the above rendering is the best conversion I can get from VTS_O1_1.VOB to AVI, then I presume my process should be:

Start with the source as the AVI file I built, Match Media Settings just for safety's sake, then pick the NTSC DV choice (the only one that matches media settings) when I render each separate snippet to AVI, crop and add sub-titles in a VEG file for that newly created AVI snippet, and render to MP4?

>> "Although this does not directly affect your render, ...

When rendering to MP4, should I pay no attention to the Project Properties based on your statment just above [Project Properties] do not directly affet the render? Or should I take care to replicate those you recommend in the 'Good' portion of your YouTube video (i.e. Best render quality, Progressive scan, Mainconcept AVC, Deinterlace=Interpolate, Variable bit rate = Two pass, etc?
...

Or just possibly (which I find a little scary), should I start the process I propose just above from the original VTS_01_1.VOB file itself? One worry with that scenario is that Vegas doesn't recognize VOB files as among the possible choices for Match Media Settings, even after I downloaded the VLC player (the yellow & white striped cone), which IS capable of playing just by double-clicking on the VOB file (since I established that file association).

To Chienworks:

1. A recent discovery has shown that your idea of editing them all in a single project has an important advantage other than the one you mention: I recently came across a CD (published in 2009) of the same material that existed only on VHS when I digitized it in 2003. The CD (i.e. the VOB files mentioned in my reply to musicdvd just above) has much better resolution. Now that my cropping choices and subtitles are all in separate files, that editing will have to be re-done if I go with the newer, better version I now have (which I will do for future edits in this VEG file). Or at least, I'll have to substitute new separate clips into each existing little VEG file independently.

But I have one big problem with the method you suggest. I don't see how it can work other than by splitting the separate sentences being cropped and sub-titled into separate events. But it happens with non-negligible frequency that I want to change the width of what I have previously designated as a particular sentence of interest. And once a split is performed it can never be healed according to Sony tech support person I consulted earlier, other than by reloading the whole underlying media, which would clobber all the other event splits. Or add another track for that problem, then another, and another...

2. As to what type of sub-titles I'm using, I assume they must be overlays since I don't know how to do closed caption! They wind up as separate text events for each separate sign in the sentence since the whole point is to identify each sign for the reader instead of just an overall English equivalent of the sentence. That would wind up a thousands of little text events (literally) in the same big VEG file. But maybe that should be no worry.

OK, reading more about your source, i'd say it's absolutely critical that you do one and only one single render step, at the very end, when you export to the finished version that your viewers will watch. Of course, if you want to produce a separate file for each piece that's fine, But what you don't ever want to do is render the pieces, then bring those pieces in for more editing, then render again. That's a huge no-no.

Stick with your original (or most original you can obtain) on the timeline. Do all your slicing & dicing & editing & titling on that original source. You can of course split each piece into it's own event to apply cropping and other edits individually. There's no problem with that whatsoever. Splitting an event merely means that Vegas is now working with a small section of the original media. The media itself hasn't been changed at all.

Splits are non-destructive. The "standard way" to "heal" a split is to delete one of the pieces, then drag the edge of the remaining piece back out to cover the area of the deleted piece. Yes, it would be nice if Vegas had some official function for this, but it doesn't. It's still easy enough to get around. If you decide you merely split at the wrong place, and that the split should have been a little bit to the right of where you put it, drag the left edge of the right piece over to where it should be, then drag the right edge of the left piece over to match it. All fixed.

Splits really are your friend and a very essential part of editing. They're easy and useful. Practice with them and you'll see.

Thousands of text events in one file are no worry at all. It's the nature of the beast and Vegas handles it nicely.

Now, that being said ... suppose you really really really did want to do each piece as it's own separate project? I dunno why you would, but let's say we can't talk you out of it. Still there is absolutely no need or reason to generate a bunch of individual new clip files to work with. Simply split out the the piece you need from the source video and work that. For the next project, do the same thing. Vegas doesn't care whether it's working with 2 seconds from a 2 second file or 2 seconds from an hour long file. Here's a couple hints that might help you immensely in such a work flow:

1) Trim. Find the piece you need and highlight it by dragging over it, or pressing i at the beginning and o at the end. Adjust the start and end points as necessary. Press t to trim. Everything before the start and after the end is removed leaving you with just the piece you want. You can also do this with the trimmer window, but i find it easier to do it on the timeline.

2) Sort of as above, but have two Vegas windows open. After you've selected the piece you want, instead of trimming press Ctrl-C to copy, then move to the other Vegas window and press Ctrl-V to paste. This way you not only still have the whole original file open in the first window so you don't have to open it again, but you still have a "bookmark", so to speak, showing you where the last piece was so you can start looking for the next immediately after it. In fact, if the pieces are contiguous, dragging the left little triangle to the right, past the end of the selection, starts you selecting with the previous end as the new beginning of the next part.