The absolute best and simplest way to do this is via a dedicated, sound-for-picture oriented multitrack machine like those made by Tascam, Sound Devices, HHB or others. These are quite pricey (Tascam is definitely most affordable), but should be rentable in major markets, at least. These devices usually have everything in them, mic pres, mixer, effects, removable media that is slatable, etc.

Second "best" is some other form of dedicated digital multitrack with either time code capability or extra tracks to throw time code on. Most affordable of these is still the Alesis HD24, which is, unfortunately discontinued but available for rent. You would need a mixer and mic pres for these, at the least. There are very few models of anything like this anymore, because the market has been driven down by:

Third best is the computer based DAW, as indicated in the post above. If you are okay at using the software, and if the I/O box has enough of the right I/O, it can approximate the same functions as the all-in-one boxes at the top....BUT, it is a computer DAW and requires more thought, more experience and more care to keep stable.

All of these options can work.

For $399, I suspect Zoom is more of a hobby toy with specs to match it's price. I would look for a Pro USB or Firewire device with at least eight pre-amps.. or line-ins, if your mixer is of good quality and has direct outs. I have used Vegas (SloTools and other DAWs) to record eight and more inputs that way. Just have some kind of back up running in case there's problems. Other options are to hire an experienced sound person mix it on-the-fly or use an auto-mixer like the Shure 410/810, but they ain't fool-proof either. Rent a Sound Devices 788 or other pro location recorder, which could give you time code as well.

1) um... get better pre-amps? :)
2) don't pause, just leave the audio running and slice it up later. i record 8-16 channels into Vegas live and never turn off the record til the evening is done and everyone is packing up (average 3-5 hours per channel 24-bit recording)... then go home and slice & dice.

i'm currently using an RME firewire device with an ADAT lightpiped in to cover any extra line-level channels that may occur... a number of devices have pre-amps built-in; perhaps one of them could be rented from a post-house or music store where you live

(edited for clarity)

I use the Presonus Firepod and Vegas 9 on a laptop.

Rather than Pause the Zoom, if you stop and restart recording each new segment, there will be new files (sets of files) for each ?

There are dozens(?) of 8 channel audio interfaces that will do what you want, to recoprd ditectly to Vegas. You presumably need one with phantom powering....

For live location recording I use a Phonic Helixboard mixer (14 mic inputs), which is hardly high-end, but certainly acceptable sound quality for my purposes most of the time ...

geoff

Before the days of digital multicam shooting with discrete audio w/o timecode was somewhat difficult due to drift. You could sync but only for a few minutes before drift was noticeable. But now you can sync the audio/video at the top of the shoot and as long as you don't turn off the camera or audio recorder and sample rates are set the same it'll stay in sync for hours.

"Before the days of digital multicam shooting with discrete audio w/o timecode was somewhat difficult due to drift"

Audio synced to vision was being record over 40 years ago. A pilot tone track was recorded to the analog recorder, that system is still in use today, only just, by the diehards.


Bob.

Not a whole lot of field recorders around that'll do 8 tracks.
I doubt you have cameras with genlock so pointless talking about the very high end gear with 8 tracks that'll do all that, hideously expensive.

Cheapest way unless you want to use a laptop with an external box might be two Edirol R-44s with a sync cable. You can simply connect two together to get an 8 track recorder. One becomes the master that provides the clock for both so they stay in sync. They'll still drift relative to the camera(s) though. I've had pretty good luck though with less than 1 frame drifte per hour between my EX1 and either my R-44 or R-4. Another nice feature with the R-44 is you can run it off mains with the internal battery as a backup, even if someone trips over the power cord you will not lose a recording.

Bob.

The dual Edirols are a great suggestion.

In terms of staying locked "for hours", this is not really the case, especially with independent multiple cameras. The only way to make things stay locked for that long is to have everyone on genlock and have that genlock be driving the wordclock for your digital recorder.....or vice versa. Staying good and solid without this for long periods, however, is still pretty common. Just don't expect miracles, however.

Luckily, since the advent of NLEs, things can be relined up just fine in Vegas or whatever. This is so common that many editors don't care much about time code anymore.......I have a full time code slate and distribution rig from my audio days doing concert shoots. Even though it came in useful for some of the more complex gigs, it was ignored most of the time in post.

It is a good idea to be feeding at least one camera with your live mix and have other cameras have their camera mics on. This makes the line-up in post all that much easier for you as the editor.

.....And it really doesn't hurt to have a time code slate available, time code going to your recorders and code going to any cameras that can take it. One version of the Edirol does take time code, for sure, so one would hope that, if the sync cable did not carry timecode between the two machines, you could at least be printing timecode to both. That way, the Broadcast Wave files would line up on the timeline even if the didn't start at exactly the same time. Pretty important.

>Cheapest way unless you want to use a laptop with an external box might be two Edirol R-44s with a sync cable. You can simply connect two together to get an 8 track recorder. One becomes the master that provides the clock for both so they stay in sync. They'll still drift relative to the camera(s) though. I've had pretty good luck though with less than 1 frame drifte per hour between my EX1 and either my R-44 or R-4. Another nice feature with the R-44 is you can run it off mains with the internal battery as a backup, even if someone trips over the power cord you will not lose a recording.

Thanks Bob. This sounds like a good solution. I just did a quick search for rental Edirol's but didn't find anything yet. I'll call a few places today to see if I can find a pair.

I should have mentioned in my original post that this is an all day shoot, but it will consist of twelve 15 minute segments. I hope drift won't be an issue of the 15 minute individual shots.

/jerry

>It is a good idea to be feeding at least one camera with your live mix and have other cameras have their camera mics on. This makes the line-up in post all that much easier for you as the editor

Thanks mudsmith, I will be doing this.

/jerry

"I hope drift won't be an issue of the 15 minute individual shots."

I'd be very surprised if it was.

Just a word of caution. Doing what you're planning to do sounds like a great idea but it will be a lot of work in post. 8 tracks of audio is a lot and adjusting all those volume envelopes is a lot of work when you've got such a lot of it to work through.
Not to discourage you from having a go but having a recording of a basic mix as well wouldn't hurt, you may well find it is simply good enough to get the job done.

Bob.

........15 minutes of shooting for digtial devices should involve negligible drift.

Here is a link for R-44 sales:

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/search.php?s=edirol+recorder

This model does not seem to have time code. As long as the master starts the slave at the same time, you should still be okay......make sure to record at 48k.

Here is the pro model at BandH with time code:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/437142-REG/Edirol_Roland_R_4PRO_R_4_Pro_4_Channel.html


Here is the pro 8 track all-in-one from Tascam at Markertek

http://www.markertek.com/Audio-Equipment/Audio-Hard-Disk-Recorders/Tascam/HS-P82.xhtml?TCM-HS-P82

The Sound Devices version will cost twice as much or so.....

I wouldn't dismiss the Zoom R16 too quickly. For what it costs it's a great machine.

I've used it to record a 3 hour live music show, up to 8 tracks - no need to complicate by having laptop with Vegas - just record onto an SD card and put those tracks into Vegas afterwards and synch with video. Then the whole show can be remixed if desired.

In my case the R16 also acted as a stage mixer, output to two powered speakers, and had 5 mics, two guitar amps and a keyboard patched directly in and the sound was pristine.

>I wouldn't dismiss the Zoom R16 too quickly. For what it costs it's a great machine

Peter, was there any issues with preamp noise in your recordings? I'm thinking perhaps a good compromise could be to record the mixed output to one of the cameras or an H4 AND the eight individual tracks to the R16. That way I have maximum redundancy and edit flexibility.

Upon reflection, I think my original concern about not being able to start a new set of wavs after a pause isn't really an issue. In fact, it might be advantageous to end up with only 8 wavs rather than 8 tracks x12 segments = 96 wavs.

/jerry

Jerry, I was wondering where the problem you mentioned with preamp noise came from.

In my instance I had 4 x SM58 mics, not needing phantom power, straight into the R16 plus line outs from two guitar amps and a keyboard. Floor noise level was close to zero. It's important to set the input level with the Line <> Mic knob to suit whatever is being input, and check peak and general levels, of course.

Peter, see "Ok but noisy" at this B&H Zoom R16 Review.

But overall it has quite good ratings.

/jerry

Yeah I read a couple of references to noise, but as I said I've not had problems and like most owners, I just love this machine.

"Luckily, since the advent of NLEs, things can be relined up just fine in Vegas or whatever. This is so common that many editors don't care much about time code anymore."

I did a really rough, low ball recording of a local lecture a few weeks ago using a consumer SD card HD camcorder for video and my 'Droid cell phone up on the podium for audio recording. The audio recording came up about 8 frames shorter than the video. It took me less than 10 seconds in Vegas to align and resync them.