How to set Markers to avoid pausing at chapters?

S35 wrote on 2/16/2015, 7:24 AM
Hello all,

I'm going to be making a DVD master today that will be replicated. However, I'm wondering how I should set chapter point markers up: in Vegas? in DVD Architect (Scene/Chapter type or Chapter type)?

The reason I ask is because one time I made a DVD that played perfectly fine on my player, but a different low-end DVD player would pause momentarily at every chapter point resulting in a brief freezing of both video and sound. I thought maybe this had something to do with encountering chapter points on a DVD-R, rather than on a DVD-ROM? If that's possible, would delivering an already burned master copy on a DVD-R to the replicating facility result in DVDs that don't freeze? Or should I use the "mastering" feature of DVD Architect? (Copy-protection won't be added as far as I know, so setting "flags" shouldn't be necessary.)

I figured placing markers in Vegas at completely black spots in the movie (especially where no overlapping sound exists) would fool-proof the final copy, but pure, soundless gaps are far fewer than the number of logical scenes in the movie.

Any advice would be appreciated!

Thanks,
Adam

Comments

Steve Grisetti wrote on 2/16/2015, 7:36 AM
What's the difference between a DVD-R and DVD-ROM, S35?

Could it be that you're test-driving your DVD on a DVD-RW?

That COULD make a difference, as DVD-RWs use a slightly different method for recording data and may not play as smoothly on some DVD players as DVD-Rs do.
S35 wrote on 2/16/2015, 7:45 AM
Thanks, Steve, for your reply. I'm pretty sure the DVD I had made in the past was a DVD-R... but I think you're right about -RWs, as I've had freezing on laptops with those. I'd still like to know more about this issue though, to make sure, at least on my end, everything has been done to insure no embarrassing glitches occur.
set wrote on 2/16/2015, 7:51 AM
I always set my markers on Vegas, and burning to DVD-R.

A DVD Media issue?
Maybe you can check what DVD Media you are using, including Media ID of those discs.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/reviews/dvd-media.htm
Make sure you are using 1st class blank DVD media.

Set

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S35 wrote on 2/16/2015, 8:30 AM
Wow, that's an incredibly useful article! Thanks, Set!

Hmm... I've got a junky Memorex DVD-R leftover (most burns failed), an old but unused Sony DVD+R, and some good-but-unreliable-playback-on-laptops Sony DVD-RWs... maybe I'll need to get some new discs. BTW, the DVD-R I mentioned previously that would freeze at chapter points in the low-quality player was likely one of those Memorex's. I don't think we had the Sony -RWs at the time.

In regards to using a DVD+R or -RW to make my master copy on, could there be any issues when it's sent in for replication? Thanks!
videoITguy wrote on 2/16/2015, 9:44 AM
Your replication house will have the specs you need for submitting a disc for replication - and it may be based on what you are attempting to do with such a mastering process.

on the other hand rest assured that burning RW discs is a different animal because of the reflectivity of the disc - hence issues with playback are more sensitive in hardware transfers (meaning you swap disc burned in burner A for playing back in another drive -ROM or burner- as drive B). That is why you never create distribution discs on RW media, and you only should share projects with write -once discs (R).
S35 wrote on 2/16/2015, 11:57 AM
Thanks, videoITguy, for that helpful insight! I will avoid the RW discs for the master.
johnmeyer wrote on 2/16/2015, 4:19 PM
Answer to your first question

... I made a DVD that played perfectly fine on my player, but a different low-end DVD player would pause momentarily at every chapter point resulting in a brief freezing of both video and sound.I have to disagree with those who suspect that media may be an issue. I am almost certain that the pauses at chapter boundaries are not due to the type or quality of media you used. Bad media can cause all sorts of problems, but a chapter stop does not affect or interrupt the flow of bits from the DVD, so you should see no hesitations or any other artifacts at chapter stop locations.

However ...

Authoring a DVD with multiple MPEG-2 files will result in a DVD with multiple titles. If you specify the end action of one MPEG-2 file so that it points to the next title, most DVD players will hesitate as the player searches for next MPEG-2 file. This will create a pause, and the other artifacts you described. Most software DVD players that you use when playing the DVD on your computer won't have this pause because your computer's hardware is so much faster than what is built into a cheap consumer DVD player. This helps explain why you had no issues on one device, but did have issues on another device.

So, the solution is to render in such a way that you have one single MPEG-2 file, rather than multiple MPEG-2 files. You can also use a smart rendering program like Womble or VideoRedo to combine together existing MPEG-2 files. I do this all the time.

So, don't spend your time looking for issues with media (although you should, of course, use either Verbatim or Taiyo-Yuden/JVC professional grade media).

Answer to your other question.

I'm wondering how I should set chapter point markers up: in Vegas? in DVD Architect (Scene/Chapter type or Chapter type)?Always set your chapter point markers in Vegas. There are two reasons for this advice. First, Vegas gives you many more options for scrubbing the timeline, and it is a lot easier to place the markers precisely where you want them. Also, chapter markers often go at the boundaries between events, and in Vegas these boundaries are obvious and the marker will snap to them. Once you've rendered the file and imported it into DVDA, these clues are gone.

The other reason is more subtle, but also more important, and it has to do with what frames are "legal" locations for a chapter marker. Once an MPEG-2 file is created, markers can only be placed at the beginning of a GOP (Group Of Pictures) which, for MPEG-2 DVD files, happens about once every fifteen frames. This only gives you a precision of half a second, which means you may not be able to place the chapter marker at the exact frame location you want.

However, after much complaining from many people in this forum (with mois being one of the most vocal), Sony added software in Vegas so that when you render an MPEG-2 file, Vegas always creates a new GOP at the location of each chapter marker. Thus, the marker will always be located at the beginning of a GOP, no matter what frame you choose. It is impossible to do this if you render in Vegas and then try to add the markers in DVDA.


[edit]Here is a link to the post I made over ten years ago, describing the problem of not being able to put chapter marks at any arbitrary frame location, and how it ruined many of my DVDs:

Chapter location in final DVD doesn't match DVDA location

farss wrote on 2/16/2015, 4:29 PM
[I]"It is impossible to do this if you render in Vegas and then try to add the markers in DVDA."[/I]

The later versions of DVDA show you where the I frames are.
Pretty certain it will not even let you place chapter markers anywhere other than at I frames.


Bob.
johnmeyer wrote on 2/16/2015, 9:17 PM
Bob,

You are correct, but you missed my point. In DVD Architect you can see where the I-frames are as you drag the markers left/right on the DVDA timeline. The yellow exclamation mark disappears when the marker lands on a GOP start frame. The problem is -- and this is what you missed -- you can only get navigation to the points where the marker doesn't show a yellow exclamation mark. By contrast, when you create the markers in Vegas, the MPEG-2 encoder in Vegas actually created a short GOP preceding the marker (if necessary) so that a new GOP begins at the exact point where you placed the marker.

So, in summary, if you create the markers in Vegas, you can place them on any frame you want, and when you play the DVD, the navigation will start on that exact frame. By comparison, in DVDA, if you try to place the marker on any one of the 14 out of 15 frames that don't start a new GOP. navigation will NOT start at that location, but instead will go to the nearest GOP starting point. If this starting point happens to be a few frames prior to where you place the marker, you will get an annoying "flash" of a previous scene, which is what I complained about in that ancient thread I linked to in my previous post.
Gary James wrote on 2/16/2015, 9:22 PM
To add to what John said, Vegas has a Render option that allows you to tell Vegas to create "I" frames at Timeline Markers. I frames are at the start of a GOP, If you have this Vegas option enabled, you can place your DVD Chapters on exact frames.

S35 wrote on 2/17/2015, 7:09 AM
Thank you John, Bob, and Gary for your helpful feedback.

John, the pausing I had experienced was at chapter points within the same MPEG-2 file. I actually don't think I had any other files on the DVD, other than that one. Is it possible that having "Insert I-frames at markers" checked creates a non-standard cadence for the GOP (not every 15 frames) that could throw-off cheap quality DVD players? Like I said, this only occurred on a cheap DVD player, our player was totally fine.