"I can't leave my woman"!

FPP wrote on 4/5/2014, 10:07 AM

I know this subject has been beaten to death and I promised myself that I was not going to bash SCS pertaining to the great software they develop. I am not a software developer so I really don't know what it takes to make software work better for the masses. With all the different computer configurations out there it must be hard for the developers to pinpoint every NLE editor's issue when it comes to a digital workstation. How do you explain why SVP 12 works without issue on some computers and not perform well on others? I like most other editors hope that any possible foreseeable issue will be addressed in Sony Pro 13. Right now I don't have many of the most common issues that I've seen discussed on this forum. Although I've had my share of issues, it is the experience that helped me learn the software more than I expected.. Now that I am ONE with my software, I discovered that a lot of the issues herein can be solved with a little tweak here and there.. Especially if you deal with multi-format source material. Computers are evolving faster than humans are and a six month old cellphone is an antique. I deal with a crash every now and then and knowing this is possible with just about all software I make sure I have back up. This software will do what you tell it to do.. You just have to figure out how to talk to it when it gets mad at your computer.. I know this may sound crazy but you actually have to have a relationship with this software.. Love it and understand it like a woman.. Sony Vegas Pro 12 gets an attitude when you don't talk to it properly. Now if SVP 13 is released and of course it will take some time before the users can determine if there is "The Fix Of All Fixes" included. There should be a significant discount for legal users of VP 12 because I'm sure that this forum helped the developers as much as it helped the users.

Comments

larry-peter wrote on 4/5/2014, 11:23 AM

I can't think of a way to quantify or prove your statements, but I agree with a lot of them. I do believe there is some degree of quantum influence of consciousness on a computer/software system. There are anecdotal stories of a phenomenon that some refer to as "psychic storms." Extreme emotions having an effect on physical systems.

I personally had to release an employee once because we proved through repetition that she could crash a computer system simply by entering the room. She had to admit it was true after repeated experiments.

FPP wrote on 4/5/2014, 11:37 AM

atom12-
I guess I may of spaced out on this post but that's how I have been able to live with this software.
Your response suggest to me that I am "Out There Bad".
Psychic storms?
I was only trying to have fun with my anticipation of version 13 and what it could mean to me.. This post wasn't intended to be in jest but if it reads that way, I'm guilty.

larry-peter wrote on 4/5/2014, 12:31 PM

@FPP, I intended exactly the opposite. If anything, I would personally refer to you as "Out There Good." ;-) My response was meant to be a serious support of your statement about being "one with the software." Whether it's a simple acceptance of its capabilities, or something more metaphysical, I truly believe that mentally offering support to a complex, precision system - whether it's an automobile or a computer - brings more positive results than the opposite.

If I've showed myself as being "out there", so be it. Most people who know me already have that opinion.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 4/5/2014, 1:08 PM

> "With all the different computer configurations out there it must be hard for the developers to pinpoint every NLE editor's issue when it comes to a digital workstation. How do you explain why SVP 12 works without issue on some computers and not perform well on others?"

There are three major problems:

(1) No two PC's use the same hardware because no one wants to buy the junk that Dell and others are selling or can afford the price of an HP workstation. So we build our own. I can build a Quad Core 3.2Ghz computer, 8GB memory, 1TB hard drive, NVIDIA GPU, for $399 or I can build a Quad Core 3.2Ghz computer, 8GB memory, 1TB hard drive, NVIDIA GPU, for $3,999. There lies the problem. The quality of the parts selected make a big difference depending on if you're word processing or video rendering. Some people buy the cheapest motherboard they can find. Probably not a good choice for stability but it's within their budget. Some people buy underpowered CPU's, while others buy "value" RAM. It all depends on what you can afford. Sometimes the biggest stability problem comes from an underpowered Power Supply. It's a delicate balancing act. I always buy the best parts and my builds are usually very stable and work well with Vegas Pro.

I'm sure if Sony said that they qualify Vegas Pro 13.0 on the HP Z820 Workstation we would all run out and buy one tomorrow and we would all have about the same experience. But there would still be issues because of the second reason:

(2) Software doesn't only affect itself. Some software packages overlay codecs that ship with Vegas in favor of their own and cause Vegas to become unstable. Some software links their filters into Windows DirectX processing chains. I had a copy of Nero that nastily linked into the video processing of every piece of video software on my computer and if it had a bug, every video program was affected by it. Needless to say I never bough another Nero product after that. So any software can affect the stability of your PC making any other software behave unexpectedly.

(3) The third problem is HD itself. What is HD? I have no idea. It's about a million different formats with new ones being invented every day. Back in the days of DV... DV was DV! You could take a tape from one manufactures camera and play it in another manufactures camera without a problem. Software new how to deal with it because it was one standard format. Vegas was extremely stable in the days of DV. Today with HD, no two cameras shoot the same format. Even cameras that claim to shoot a standards like AVCHD have to tweak it just a bit to cause problems. 4K is going to be an even worse nightmare because no one can even agree on what the resolution of 4K is, never mind the codes.

With those three issues against you... it's amazing that any software is able to edit any video at all. But THAT is what software developers are up against when they try and write a program like Vegas Pro.

~jr

John Rofrano
Senior Software Architect
Sometimes Visionary, Often Hallucinatory Always Controversial ;-)

FPP wrote on 4/5/2014, 1:32 PM

atom12-
I hear you man.. I guess I was just prepared for a beat down because of the "Old Argument & You're Preaching To The Choir" kind feel to my point.

FPP wrote on 4/5/2014, 1:38 PM

JohnnyRoy-
I see your points very well.

OldSmoke wrote on 4/5/2014, 2:22 PM

JR I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Like others I do talk to my "black box" and after a job well done I pet it on the top, so much so that my dog is jealously barking at it, but I build it myself, it is my baby.

Steve Mann wrote on 4/5/2014, 3:32 PM

John, very good response.
many software installations replace some system dll files only to cause havoc with other programs that use the same dll file. Ever watch the stream of programs that whiz by during an installation?

I have built identical PCs that after only a few days were no longer identical. With the matrix of hardware, drivers and multitude of software installations, the combinations are surely in the googol (that's a real number) range.

The only way you could get a guaranteed system is to weld the case closed and reset the registry every time you boot the system.

FPP wrote on 4/5/2014, 4:53 PM

JohnnyRoy- < It's amazing that any software is able to edit any video at all. But THAT is what software developers are up against when they try and write a program like Vegas Pro.>
Your point rings through the room loud and clear..
Non-Linear-Editing in it and of itself is just short of a miracle rivaled only by the magic of Houdini himself.. The power this software puts in the hands of anyone who wants to bring their visual art to fruition is humbling and amazing.. And now the (cinema tee-pee) is full of Cecil B DeMilles and not enough viewers to watch all the great work produced in bedrooms, basements and classrooms all over the world.

JohnW1234 wrote on 4/5/2014, 7:14 PM

My first car was a 1964 Chevy Impala Super Sport convertible with a 327 engine Dark blue and white top. It ran better after a wash and wax. It had its pride.

It doesn't surprise me that we humans personify machines. After all we call ships she. But lets not take this too far.

JJKizak wrote on 4/5/2014, 7:50 PM

My buddy showed me his new $792.00 cell phone (it had some kind of funny name) and while he was showing it he was taking high def movies with this little
pee pee lens forward and backward and then putting it on Youtube. He didn't know anything about NLE systems or the like. God help us when the 6 year old kids are making movies. I have this old fashioned phone at home that you pick
up when it rings and it doesn't ake any video. It's too big to carry around but then again the Three Stooges could make it take pictures.
JJK

TheHappyFriar wrote on 4/5/2014, 8:43 PM

The third problem is HD itself. What is HD? I have no idea. It's about a million different formats with new ones being invented every day. Back in the days of DV... DV was DV!

I agree. That's why I've stuck with HDV so far... because so far it works and I don't have issues with it. It seems to be a standard just like DV because it's the firewire interface that handles it, not a camera manufacture.

God help us when the 6 year old kids are making movies.

Future editors, directors & script writers if you ask me. :)

DrLumen wrote on 4/5/2014, 11:25 PM

I agree with Johnny on the complexity and all the intracacies - especially regarding DLL's and the like that get changed, wedged or overwritten.

But, as devil advocate for a machines' temperamental nature, I believe each system has it's own quirks because of the various hardware and software, Not that they are emotional per se but the combination of things do lend to them having a type of personality.

For example, you start up a system, run a particular program and close it. Because of bugs, memory leaks or other artifacts that were left behind and loaded could easily affect the next app you run.

"When does a personality simulation become the bitter mote... of a soul?"

Steve Mann wrote on 4/6/2014, 12:00 AM

"It doesn't surprise me that we humans personify machines. After all we call ships she. But lets not take this too far."

I name my PC's for gods. Thor, Jupiter, Hades, etc.

John_Cline wrote on 4/6/2014, 12:34 AM

I don't name cars, computers or other devices, when I do, they tend to develop personalities and that rarely works out well.

JohnnyRoy wrote on 4/6/2014, 7:55 AM

> Reply by: TheHappyFriar "I agree. That's why I've stuck with HDV so far..."

Me too, I'm still shooting with my Sony HVR-Z1U and editing most HDV but actually, HDV was the first offender. Tapes from Canon camera won't plan in Sony cameras and neither will play in Panasonic or JVC cameras. This was the beginning of the end. They couldn't even agree on a standard tape format so now there are several that are all incompatible (I think only two manufacturers can read each others tapes).

Someone at the Creative COW posted just the other day that a client gave them HDV tapes and they wanted to know what kind of equipment they had to rent to capture them and we ask, "What camera are the tapes from" and they replied, "the client doesn't know" so all we could say was, "tell your client the tapes are useless without know what camera that recorded them!". What a sad statement to have to make. HD was a pathetic mess right from the start. Blu-ray compatibility is worse (don't get me started).

The secret is finding a workflow that works for YOU and sticking with it. This is not a trivial statement because it's hard to find that "perfect" workflow. It looks like for me and Stephen (TheHappyFriar) it's HDV (although I do also work with AVCHD but only from Sony cameras).

This simple statement is something people overlook. I see posts all the time that start with, "I just bought a new camera and can't edit the footage in Vegas Pro". Really?... Seriously?... you bought a new piece of gear without first checking if it fits with all of your other gear? Would you buy RAM and hope that it fits in your computer? No, you would check the specs first and buy the RAM that's made for that computer. Would you buy a memory card and hope that it fits in your camera? No, you would check the specs and buy the right format card for your camera. Then why, oh why, do people think they can buy any camera and use it with their NLE without first checking the specs to see if their NLE supports it? The answer is simple... because people expect Video to be Video just like DV was DV. News Flash: Video is NOT Video! (i.e., 1 + 1 does not always equal 2 for very large values of 1) ;-)

> Posted by: Steve Mann "I name my PC's for gods. Thor, Jupiter, Hades, etc."

I name my computers for Star Trek planets. My main laptop is Iotia and my desktop is Gothos. I have an account on Gothos called "Squire". Star Trek fans will appreciate getting an email from the "Squire@Gothos" lol

~jr

FPP wrote on 4/6/2014, 10:16 AM

JohhnyRoy-
I wasn't going to reply to your comment but Decided to because I think you hit the nail on the head pertaining to a "Workflow That Works For You".. In essence it means to me that you should build a Digital Workstation around your current technical abilities and certainly your financial capabilities to facilitate your artistic
output.
Starting with a basic "Workstation" and build up as you become more aware of your "Workflow" needs.
Don't laugh, but I still shoot/edit with standard definition video... I have less tech issues because most if not all of my peripheral source material is higher standards and it is easy for me to take standard footage for the HD ride with respects to compatibility and render issues.

NormanPCN wrote on 4/6/2014, 12:02 PM

JohnnyRoy>>(i.e., 1 + 1 does not always equal 2 for very large values of 1) ;-)

Sweet. I gotta remember, and steal, that one!

VMP wrote on 4/6/2014, 5:10 PM

I am sure that electronic device manufactures are aware of this X-factor or (currently) immeasurable phenomena that living beings can cause devices to function unpredictably.

Ever wonder why those ferrite blocks are present at the end of PC/electronic cables?
And inside PC devices, especially where one would physically touch the device?

I believe those are one of the many countermeasures that manufacturers use to minimalize this phenomena.

More about those ferrite blocks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrite_bead

I already said too much.
I see two black helicopters approaching.

"

Scully."
~Mulder

VMP

Laurence wrote on 4/6/2014, 6:33 PM

Here is something that really has driven many of us nuts: Vegas 10 still had a few major bugs when V11 was released. These included the dreaded "black frame" and "randomly replaced footage" bugs. Then when V11 was released, V10 development stopped and the remaining bugs stayed. V11 absolutely NEVER worked once on my system through it's whole life cycle. Then V12 was released and it was quite a while before it was workable (for me at least) and some major problems still remain. That means, that for me at least (and a number of others here), that we haven't had a fully evolved stable release since V9! Other software developers still squash the remaining bugs in previous systems. Microsoft has been supporting XP for instance up until just recently.

If you didn't upgrade to Windows Vista, 7 or 8, Windows XP still worked fine and any bugs were still squashed. I wish Vegas was like that.

videoITguy wrote on 4/6/2014, 6:42 PM

"wish Vegas were..." - well of course, Laurence, you should not have expected any less - did you realize that all versions of VegasPro 12 since the initial release had a severe and degrading fault in the encoding of basic Mpeg2 streams??? AND it wasn't until version release 770 that this was corrected. This fault did not exist in versions 11, 10, 9, etc. Why does it appear that we take 2 steps backward for every step forward.

NormanPCN wrote on 4/6/2014, 7:07 PM

did you realize that all versions of VegasPro 12 since the initial release had a severe and degrading fault in the encoding of basic Mpeg2 streams?

If the bug was in the actual encoder itself, then Sony cannot fix things like that. All they can do is report a bug to Mainconcept and wait for a fix.

Sony AVC encode and HDCAM SR decode and encode are Sony. All the others I have looked at have Mainconcept copyrights on the files.

videoITguy wrote on 4/6/2014, 7:51 PM

not the encoder code, but the hooks that Vegas app was supposed to delve into the encoder to use it - so the default template if you will

larry-peter wrote on 4/6/2014, 9:13 PM

I’m going to tread lightly into a side-track…

I think we all know the truth lies somewhere between the camps of “Vegas is bad software” and “It works for me, it must be your system.” Vegas has been plagued with several bugs, the footage replacement, black frames and MPEG mentioned above – among others. And I think we all realize this began when the trends toward GPU acceleration and “No more transcoding! Native editing!” started.

Several in this post hit upon the sweet spot: a consistent workflow and a system built for that workflow.

Avid and FCP became entrenched into the “pro” world long ago by demanding video conversion to specific friendly codecs. Even today, you’re not going to hear many broadcast or Hollywood editors complaining that they were given a 25fps MPEG2 their NLE won’t handle or an .avi codec they’ve never seen before. They also probably won’t be rendering from their NLE to AVC/AAC. That’s not their world. The I/O leans toward lightly compressed, uncompressed or RAW. Any further conversions are done by dedicated encoders. Those who are attempting to use those same NLEs in a wider, native editing workflow seem to have many of the same issues as Vegas, according to their forums.

I’m not saying these things to take any pressure off SCS to make their software perform exactly as their marketing claims it does. I want them to fix the ongoing bugs while being more realistic with their claims about compatibility with native files, hardware and other software on a system.

I think the “prosumer” video world a lot of us make a living in has a much more difficult technical workflow than does Hollywood. I’ve been asked if I would ever consider using Vegas if I was in a network or Hollywood editing environment. If I had agreement about workflow, knew exactly which formats would be delivered to me and by me, I feel I could build a clean, stable system with a minimum of ancillary software and codecs and probably deliver a cut to the colorist faster on Vegas than any other system. Media management would probably be the real deal-killer.

Long, I know, but the point I’m really trying to make is, when I see the posts about, “Can Vegas be considered a Professional editor,” it seems that many of those with issues are using a “prosumer” workflow, editing everything including the kitchen sink in native format, then encoding to a kitchen sink codec from the timeline. “It crashes with my new DSLR video, or my screen capture video, or this unknown file that my client gave me.” Or, “I can’t render to AVC with GPU acceleration.” Granted, if the manufacturer says it works, it should work, but most “pro” high-end editors aren’t asking their NLEs to do these things. Their workflow is standardized, day-in, day-out.

Get a fast RAID, and try an uncompressed in, uncompressed out workflow and let me know what you think. Or transcode everything to MXF for editing and then uncompressed out. That’s closer to the “pro” workflow most think of. If you have a decently powered system, you probably will have the best editing experiences you’ve ever had with Vegas.

The real NLE battle ground seems to be in the prosumer ”anything in, anything out" arena, not the Hollywood or network broadcast arena, and none of them are sailing smoothly as far as I can tell. Maybe it’s time for the entire editing paradigm to take a few steps backward and stop racing the bleeding edge.