I hate avid, but I have a gun to my head.

Chapplemap wrote on 11/15/2003, 10:35 PM
Hiya all. Man, I have to say, I've been through a lot solving this problem. I made a post about it a month ago, and though I recieved a lot of good advice, it never fixed the problem. http://mediasoftware.sonypictures.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&MessageID=217939

It was about audio popping and dropouts during preview and capture. I have tried everything. My computers are brand new. I have tried different tapes, 3 firewire boards, two different cameras (GL1 and dvx100), three different computers, and I even used WMcap.exe which isolates the firewire feed (to make sure it isn't your NLE causing the problem).

I ran antivirus, disabled processor throttleing. Played with every setting imaginable, and nothing has worked so far... UNTIL, I decided to try Avid Xpress Pro. Sure enough, it captured, and previewed flawlessly. I almost cried when I heard no audio dropouts/clicks/pops/glitches after 15 minutes of intense (eyes closed) listening.

But I HATE AVID!!! I don't want to use avid. I love Vegas. I love it from the bottom of my heart. Does anyone have a clue why Avid would correct the popping?

The tapes are free of dropouts. They were recorded using 24P advanced. Needless to say, there is nothing else wrong, because it works in Avid.

Avid uses a proprietary (Sp!) system, as well as quicktime for capture. It is a different system altogether than Vegas, which I think just uses the microsoft system, (DirectX). Anybody have a clue as to why this all is?

Comments

BillyBoy wrote on 11/16/2003, 12:24 AM
I've run it to in only once or twice so I don't recall what it was. *****

Try a search (above) on 'audio popping' I just did and got a bunch of hits. I was going to pop in (no pun intended) the URL but you can't since the search is script generated so there is no specific link to go to.

**** If its the kind of "pop" I had I was able to zoom way in on the audio track and saw a very brief vertical spike which was somehow superimposed which I was able to click on and delete...,no more pop.
Chapplemap wrote on 11/16/2003, 12:41 AM
This was not a timeline issues but an issue with capturing and previewing itself.

I have checked all over the internet for posts and articles. There is nothing with useful information. In other words, others have the same problem, but rarely post a solution.

I'm really not looking forward to switching to avid, especially because I just found out it cannot export 24Pa footage, unless you buy a 1800$ piece of equipment.
zcus wrote on 11/16/2003, 1:53 AM
Disable scene detection in the prefrences and use smart preview.
Zulqar-Cheema wrote on 11/16/2003, 9:50 AM
Hi Chapplemap, i to had problems with dropouts, no audio problems though.
I set up a new "hardware profile" that disabled all items but the firewire capture process.
Right Click MY COMPUTER, harware, "Hardware Profiles", then set a new profile up, go into Device manager and disable the things not required during cature/print. have alook at this site for more info.
http://www.blackviper.com/WinXP/servicecfg.htm

Also do you have a AMD running AMD PowerNow ? if so turn it to High performance mode, that casued problems in my laptop.

Good Luck
Chapplemap wrote on 11/16/2003, 12:09 PM
I have a P4 system.

I've tried disabling every non-essential system process and hardware system. It reduces the dropouts but does not eliminate them .

Avid does it flawlessly, and I don't have to worry about this crap. Like I said though, Avid kind of sucks in other respects. For instance, you can't export to tape in a 24p project!!!!! You know how Vegas and re-pulldown 2;3;3;2..... no nice in Avid, you're stuck with DVD or the highway. Whcih really pisses me off.

So has everyone at one point had these dropout issues? Why do they happen when all my system resources are not even close to being maxed out??? (capturing barely uses 14% of my CPU. I have a Serial ATA raid for video data. and my RAM is marked at the highest score available right now under pcmark2002.)
Brazilian wrote on 11/16/2003, 12:29 PM
So you're hearing popping when just playing a tape in the capture app-- but have you actually digitized anything and played back the result?

I'm using a M-Audio Delta 66 audio card with ASIO drivers in Vegas; I don't think Vegas' ASIO implementation is very good, as I usually hear some wierdness while capturing as well.. but so far everything has come in OK in the end. If you're not getting any dropped frames or any other video anomolies, then your audio should be fine since it's just more data coming across the firewire.. it's just Vegas playing it back badly.

If when you play back you still get pops - are they in the same place each time or random? And what sound card do you have?
Chapplemap wrote on 11/16/2003, 2:14 PM
The pops are random during preview, and DO get captured, so they are present in the same place when they are digitized.

I'm using on board audio, but it is a tight MOBO, and the sound card is VERY GOOD. Also, again there is no problem using avid, so my guess is the problem is the way DirectX handles locked DV audio,.
riredale wrote on 11/16/2003, 3:19 PM
Very odd. My system would produce occasional pops on playback, but the glitches were not in the captured audio. Upgrading to XP (and/or perhaps the newer versions of DirectX) eliminated the pops.

Since it happens on capture, whey not download the free trial ScenalyzerLive and see what happens using that utility? I love the program and use it for the many other advantages, but it would be great if it was able to pull in your audio without pops also.

Another option (although I don't know why it would have any effect) is to borrow another sound card and disable your on-board audio.
filmy wrote on 11/16/2003, 4:14 PM
I am not sure but I think I responded to you before so this may fall under your "useless information" category...again.

I remember I suggested trying other utilites to try and troubleshoot - you seem to have tried Avid, but that seems to be a huge cost to troubleshoot. I meant things like the free WinDV or the demo of SClive. Both of them capture and output - so if you can capture with these fine and output fine, with no dropouts, than it is not your tapes, deck or computer. Also did you capture with VV and than try to playback that clip in WinDV or SCLive? Were the droputs there? FWIW Windv will output 24p and/or whatever else the file flags are set at. Did you take what you rendered in VV and try it in Avid? Were there pops? Did you try both the timeline playback/PTT and the capture mod output in VV?
Chapplemap wrote on 11/17/2003, 12:53 PM
Okay. I did try listening to the captured files in media player. Still had pops., and they were in the same place everytime.

After installing Avid I noticed that the pops almost went away (not quite, but the files were usable) even when using vegas.

I did some research and found that AVID installs a service called AVID STARTUP, which blocks the OS from interfering with time-critical operations relating to video. Since I'm using locked audio, and 24Pa, I imagine that it is more sensitive to system ops?

Anyway, it will be a mystery as to what is causing the dropouts, because although it's obviously some sort of background service or process, it did not stop after disabling everything manually. So I'll just leave avid on the computer, or at least leave the startup program, and that should take care of it.

Bizaare because my computers are REALLY powerful. Nearly top of the line systems. (I got a good deal through my friend)

With things this odd, it probably is a situation where there are multiple causes, and everytime I fix one cause, another spawns, or is created.

Thanks for all the help... but I can't keep doing this, so if they start happening again, I'm just going to have to switch to avid. (I'll probably use both, and just capture with avid) On the other hand it sounds pretty good with AVID startup installed, so I bet that'll work.
BrianStanding wrote on 11/17/2003, 1:01 PM
I suppose you're already capturing to a separate hard drive, not the boot drive? If not, this may be your problem.
Jsnkc wrote on 11/17/2003, 3:31 PM
We had this problem a while back as well. I believe we were running Windows 2000. We upgraded to XP Pro, put in a diffrent firewire card and that solved the problem.
filmy wrote on 11/17/2003, 4:10 PM
>>>Since I'm using locked audio, and 24Pa, I imagine that it is more sensitive to system ops? <<<

You know, as you worded it that way, that may indeed be it. I had some issues that had nothing to do with audio pops but did have to do with 24p and glitches happening at the exact same spot every time. I tried outputting with WinDV the same file and the problem was not there. I also tried outputting via the VV Capture mod and same thing - no problems. What SoFo/Sony said however might be helpful to you -

===========
From SONYDENNIS

while back, I did a timing test, to see how pulldown method affected performance. 2-3 pulldown is harder to remove while reading, and harder to insert during rendering. On an unoptimized Dell P3/800, here's what I saw:

CPU utilization:

Reading 2-3-3-2 while printing 2-3-3-2: 40%
Reading 2-3 while printing 2-3-3-2: 60%
Reading 2-3-3-2 while printing 2-3: 70%
Reading 2-3 while printing 2-3: 80%. At this point, the output got behind and started dropping frames.

So, you can see it uses a lot more CPU to read and write 2-3 pulldown, and once your machine is past it's limit, your lose sync and drop frames.

[SNIP]

I'd recommend rendering your project to 24p DV using 2-3 pulldown, and then use the capture/print tool to print the rendered file to tape. That way, the pulldown is being adding during the render and not during the print. The capture/print utility will see the file as a regular 60i DV file.
============
Chapplemap wrote on 11/17/2003, 11:33 PM
Yeah. I don't know. It's a glitch in the truest sense of the word, because my system is brand new and optimized for performance. I am using a RAID for my capture. a p4 with 800mhz FSB, and the fastest memory the MOBO would accomodate.

I have noticed one thing, however, whether it's the P4, or XP, I don't know, but I'm noticing there is lag between the time I execute a task, and the time the processor actually dedicates cpu time to it.

For instance, when opening outlook, it takes five full seconds before I even see the CPU do anything, the Hard Drive is not being accessed, and the page file stays the same (indicating that the memory is suffiecient to handle the task). As to why that happens is beyond me. I even disabled processor throttling, yet I still notice it. I also disabled power management, which did nothing, although, if there is a better way than removing ACPI (and setting PM to "always on"), I'd like to hear it.

BTW, yes I am using a seperate drive to capture :)

I still need to try AVIDstartup on my desktop to see if it does anything. I have been avoiding it. I've spent so much time on this problem, I get the shakes whenever I think about sitting down to edit. hahaha. Maybe if I took a xanax first, I could get some work done.
SonyEPM wrote on 11/18/2003, 8:56 AM
Try sizing the capture preview window to something smallish like 180x120- this often helps.
Chapplemap wrote on 11/19/2003, 11:58 AM
Okay, I installed AVID, and sure enough, the pops are all but gone in Vegas. I need to review the captured footage, but during preview it sounded mostly fine. A few pops at the start, but there was at least five minutes afterward with no flaws at all. I must say I find this all very bizarre, however, it is no secret that microsoft DOES NOT KNOW how to handle DV well, and it's a shame that Sonic foundry/Sony chose directx/directshow's video capture subsystem over quicktime, which has proven time and time again to be the most versitile/professional/and stable video format around.... AND I HATE QUICKTIME!!! but I still have to admit that when it comes to DV, it is much better.

Avid uses its own proprietary system of capture/preview, but it also heavily modifies the system it's on for performance, and stability. I'm assuming that is why this is happening.

I'm really not fond of AVID that much, get this and no I'm not kidding:

It can't export 24Pa video to TAPE!!!!! In other words, when you make a project in avid from a dvx100 shot in 24p (advanced), it'll read it and apply the pulldown to get true 24P, but it can't re-add the pulldown for export to tape. ,What kind of crap is that?

This is among a long list of features that avid is missing. VERY LONG.

The only things that avid improves upon vegas is media management, and the interface really is the best. But it would only make a differents for long form projects. Little stuff would not benefit.

Anyway, so sony... I've already tried resizing the window. The only thing that, in the past and now, has reduced those pops, is to install avid on the same system as vegas.

I wish I knew why this was, but I don't, and I don't have anymore time to find out. I've been dealing with this for 3 months now, and I'm not 3 months behind shedule for my next project.